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-   -   Pinnacle belly up and UAX? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/united/66416-pinnacle-belly-up-uax.html)

dvhighdrive88 04-02-2012 12:09 AM

Pinnacle belly up and UAX?
 
Bloomberg

Article says they'll cease UAX flying Aug1. Not sure how much and where they do that. Any significant impact or minor?

CrakPipeOvrheat 04-02-2012 02:07 AM


Bloomberg

Article says they'll cease UAX flying Aug1. Not sure how much and where they do that. Any significant impact or minor?
How many planes is that on the UAX flying and what airframes are they?

Diesel450 04-02-2012 02:09 AM

62ish, Saabs and Q400s

DL31082 04-02-2012 03:50 AM

Plus they are ending the 16 -900 flying in ATL.

SpecialTracking 04-02-2012 04:12 AM


Originally Posted by dvhighdrive88 (Post 1162043)
Bloomberg

Article says they'll cease UAX flying Aug1. Not sure how much and where they do that. Any significant impact or minor?

They haven't stopped flying UAX yet. Therefore, it is subject to negotiation.

visceral 04-02-2012 05:44 AM

UAX drawdown begins in May and ends in Nov. For the Saabs, it ends earlier (Aug). I'll be interested in what replaces that flying.

gettinbumped 04-02-2012 06:12 AM


Originally Posted by CrakPipeOvrheat (Post 1162054)
How many planes is that on the UAX flying and what airframes are they?

It's Colgan flying. Sounds like Colgan will be shuttered.

EWRflyr 04-02-2012 06:21 AM

So they are winding down and shedding the Q400 operation? The plane with supposedly lower operating costs, esp. with current fuel prices, but yet they are keeping the 50-seat CRJ200s? Scratching my head over this one. Not that I am sad to see the "bigger" smaller contracted planes go away from our operation. Though as was mentioned before, this is probably all up for renegotiation and United could take over the Q400s and release them back to Pinnacle/Colgan or another airline. With how those planes are used in the United system now I can't see United letting them vanish completely.

This is from a Pinnacle employee Q&A:

4. What changes are going to happen to our operations?
-We intend to complete the wind-down of EAS flying with US Airways.
-Beginning in May, we will begin the wind-down of our Colgan Q400 and Saab 340 operations with United Airlines. The Saab 340 wind-down is planned to be completed by the end of July and the Q-400 operation will come to an end in November.
-We will continue to operate all CRJ200s and the former Mesaba CRJ-900 aircrafts.
-Beginning in January 2013, we will wind down the 16 Pinnacle CRJ-900 aircrafts over a period of five months.
-PinnPro ground-handling associated with the Colgan Saab 340 operation will wind down in coordination with air service termination to specified cities.

5. How many planes will be taken out of service, and when?
[3] Saab 340 aircraft associated with the US Airways EAS flying will conclude operations in June 2012.
[24] Saab 340 aircraft associated with United Express service will wind down between May and July 2012.
[31] Q400 aircraft associated with United Express service will wind down between May and November 2012.
[16] CRJ900 aircraft associated with Delta Connection service will wind down between January and May 2013.

poor pilot 04-02-2012 06:32 AM

Not so good for the line pilots. But this is great news for the industry. Maybe this will spark a change in the crappy contracts rj operators a are signing for at a loss.

gettinbumped 04-02-2012 06:55 AM


Originally Posted by poor pilot (Post 1162164)
Not so good for the line pilots. But this is great news for the industry. Maybe this will spark a change in the crappy contracts rj operators a are signing for at a loss.

Not sure about that. I fear that they will just farm it out to a crappier RJ operator at even LOWER costs. Of course, they will go to labor to make up the difference.

reCALcitrant 04-02-2012 07:04 AM

From what I understand, of course I'm not a Harvard MBA:rolleyes:, the RVSM on the planes are all lower than the 73 or Bus. If mngmt is smart (I know, I know) they'll let this happen and continue to shift flying back into mainline. The smaller airplanes are just not getting it done at a competitive price with fuel at 100/bbl. If I were king of the world, there wouldn't be a regional flying at my airline unless it had about 25 seats and served places where people are willing to pay a premium to fly out of for convenience.

El10 04-02-2012 08:24 AM

This will lead to another 1000 furloughs or airman, including some of our own that got furoughed from UAL.

dvhighdrive88 04-02-2012 09:52 AM


Originally Posted by El10 (Post 1162304)
This will lead to another 1000 furloughs or airman, including some of our own that got furoughed from UAL.

:confused:

beeker 04-02-2012 10:12 AM


Originally Posted by El10 (Post 1162304)
This will lead to another 1000 furloughs or airman, including some of our own that got furoughed from UAL.

That's alright there's a shortage of pilots right now, so I hear anyways. Yeah

globochem 04-02-2012 02:45 PM


Originally Posted by gettinbumped (Post 1162149)
It's Colgan flying. Sounds like Colgan will be shuttered.

Colgan's flying?

It's United's flying...

vtx531 04-02-2012 04:27 PM


Originally Posted by poor pilot (Post 1162164)
But this is great news for the industry.

Seriously? They will go to a lower bidder!!!!! :confused:

Andy 04-03-2012 03:51 AM


Originally Posted by El10 (Post 1162304)
This will lead to another 1000 furloughs or airman, including some of our own that got furoughed from UAL.

Our furloughees can take the job at LCAL. There are only ~250 yet to be offered jobs at LCAL.
... and maybe, just maybe some of this flying will return to MAINLINE.

Andy 04-03-2012 04:02 AM


Originally Posted by reCALcitrant (Post 1162196)
From what I understand, of course I'm not a Harvard MBA:rolleyes:, the RVSM on the planes are all lower than the 73 or Bus. If mngmt is smart (I know, I know) they'll let this happen and continue to shift flying back into mainline. The smaller airplanes are just not getting it done at a competitive price with fuel at 100/bbl. If I were king of the world, there wouldn't be a regional flying at my airline unless it had about 25 seats and served places where people are willing to pay a premium to fly out of for convenience.

I assume you mean RASM (revenue per available seat mile), not RVSM?
The CASM (cost per available seat mile) is higher on regional aircraft, but they cook the numbers to show that they get higher RASM on regional jets. It all depends on how you divide up the portions of a ticket that has multiple stops/aircraft changes. It's accounting sleight of hand for the most part.
Example: TUS-MCO. The trip is TUS-IAH (RJ) and IAH-MCO (mainline). Suppose the ticket is $150 each way. Now make the TUS-IAH leg cost $100 and the IAH-MCO leg cost $50 for accounting purposes.

We're back to a point in the business where most city pairs have more than enough daily frequency. Reducing 2 RJs to 1 737/A319 keeps the available seats to the city pair approximately neutral but reduces the cost. The loss is one daily flight for that city pair. But when you've got 6 or 7 daily RJ flights, the reduction to 5 or 6 RJs + 1 mainline will probably have minimal impact on passenger demand. It may even be greater for the mainline flight since many people prefer to fly on mainline aircraft.

gettinbumped 04-03-2012 04:24 PM


Originally Posted by globochem (Post 1162602)
Colgan's flying?

It's United's flying...

You know what I mean.

cal73 04-04-2012 05:39 AM

Pinna-Colg-mesaba may be losing large turboprop flying but the airplanes are not being parked. Some other regional carrier with a lower bid is getting em. This is not gonna mean mainline picking up the flying.

EWR73FO 04-04-2012 07:32 AM


Originally Posted by cal73 (Post 1163674)
Pinna-Colg-mesaba may be losing large turboprop flying but the airplanes are not being parked. Some other regional carrier with a lower bid is getting em. This is not gonna mean mainline picking up the flying.


Who else is currently flying them or already has the infrastructure in place to do it quickly? You would have to have a company that could almost do it overnight or a large portion of your turboprop flying out of EWR,CLE, and IAH will be unavailable for the summer. Unless they plan on dismantling the Pinnacle flying after the second quarter. Here fly your ass off for the summer and we will furlough you in the fall. I've heard this done at a certain carrier a few times before..............

beeker 04-04-2012 01:07 PM

CommutAir flies out of cle and ewr in the 200 and 300 versions for CAL. It is just a quick difference's course for the 400.

Short Bus Drive 04-04-2012 01:15 PM


Originally Posted by beeker (Post 1163943)
CommutAir flies out of cle and ewr in the 200 and 300 versions for CAL. It is just a quick difference's course for the 400.

For the pilots.
Flight attendants have to be trained, evac done, training program approved...

tom14cat14 04-04-2012 01:27 PM

It would be great if mainline take the flying back but if it goes to commute air then it will be at an even worse carrier. Our FO's make almost as much as their captains granted those are not rates for the 400. I am sure they will not be much more then what they have now.

gettinbumped 04-04-2012 02:15 PM


Originally Posted by EWR73FO (Post 1163745)
Who else is currently flying them or already has the infrastructure in place to do it quickly? You would have to have a company that could almost do it overnight or a large portion of your turboprop flying out of EWR,CLE, and IAH will be unavailable for the summer. Unless they plan on dismantling the Pinnacle flying after the second quarter. Here fly your ass off for the summer and we will furlough you in the fall. I've heard this done at a certain carrier a few times before..............

Republic is currently winding down its Q400 ops. Probably not much trouble to crank it back up again.

Andy 04-04-2012 02:22 PM


Originally Posted by cal73 (Post 1163674)
Pinna-Colg-mesaba may be losing large turboprop flying but the airplanes are not being parked. Some other regional carrier with a lower bid is getting em. This is not gonna mean mainline picking up the flying.

... or the planes go overseas. My understanding (feel free to correct me) is that a lot of older US RJs are now flying in China.

Personally, I'd rather see a slight drop in frequency between city pairs and an upguage to mainline. A single A319/737 can replace 1 50 seater + 1 70 seater and the city pair remains ASM neutral.

visceral 04-04-2012 04:03 PM


Originally Posted by gettinbumped (Post 1163983)
Republic is currently winding down its Q400 ops. Probably not much trouble to crank it back up again.

There's a reason they are winding down their Q400 ops. Bedford doesn't want them. He didn't want them when they were making money for him. Just search the old Lynx threads.

cal73 04-04-2012 04:28 PM


Originally Posted by Andy (Post 1163988)
... or the planes go overseas. My understanding (feel free to correct me) is that a lot of older US RJs are now flying in China.

Personally, I'd rather see a slight drop in frequency between city pairs and an upguage to mainline. A single A319/737 can replace 1 50 seater + 1 70 seater and the city pair remains ASM neutral.

I agree with your latter statement but I'm too cynical to believe it will actually happen. I don't believe the q400s are going to leave the Uninental operation.

theHub 04-04-2012 04:30 PM

Maybe PDT will get them. Unlikely. It's bitter sweet if we do. We'd like to get a new fleet, but not at the expense of another pilot group.

beeker 04-04-2012 04:40 PM


Originally Posted by Short Bus Drive (Post 1163951)
For the pilots.
Flight attendants have to be trained, evac done, training program approved...

They will get a wavier. Everything else in the past where people said it couldn't be done, there is always a waiver to get around it.

visceral 04-05-2012 02:32 AM


Originally Posted by beeker (Post 1163943)
CommutAir flies out of cle and ewr in the 200 and 300 versions for CAL. It is just a quick difference's course for the 400.

What is your definition of quick? These aircraft were placed under the same type to help it sell, but the similarities between them are few.

gettinbumped 04-05-2012 06:59 AM


Originally Posted by visceral (Post 1164048)
There's a reason they are winding down their Q400 ops. Bedford doesn't want them. He didn't want them when they were making money for him. Just search the old Lynx threads.

I read those threads, but we will see. $$ talks. And Bedford doesn't have a whole lot of room to be picky.

contrail67 04-05-2012 05:18 PM


Originally Posted by Andy (Post 1163988)
... or the planes go overseas. My understanding (feel free to correct me) is that a lot of older US RJs are now flying in China.

Personally, I'd rather see a slight drop in frequency between city pairs and an upguage to mainline. A single A319/737 can replace 1 50 seater + 1 70 seater and the city pair remains ASM neutral.

And the passengers are ALOT happier...

beeker 04-06-2012 06:07 AM


Originally Posted by visceral (Post 1164284)
What is your definition of quick? These aircraft were placed under the same type to help it sell, but the similarities between them are few.

737-300 and the 900 are slightly different as well but how much training additional training did you get.

IAHB756 04-06-2012 07:28 AM


Originally Posted by visceral (Post 1164284)
What is your definition of quick? These aircraft were placed under the same type to help it sell, but the similarities between them are few.


Was just on a UAL 757-200 jumpseat last week. It is vastly different from our 757-200's and -300's and much different than the 767-400 but UAL/CAL pilots will be flying every type in the not too distant future. Over a 200,000 pound difference and vast display differences between the 764 and the 752 that I'm guessing trump the differences between a Dash 8-200 and -400.

El10 04-06-2012 08:04 AM


Pinnacle generous with executives as it shortchanges pilots
Bankrupt airline's pay problems belie largess at top in Flight 3407 aftermath
Updated: April 4, 2012, 12:37 PM

WASHINGTON — Pinnacle Airlines is having trouble paying its pilots — but the struggling regional carrier didn't have any problem agreeing to pay its departing CEO $1.7 million, or giving its new top executive a $250,000 raise less than two weeks before the company filed for bankruptcy.

Pinnacle's pilots union spelled out the payroll problems in a March 29 memo to its members, which was obtained by The Buffalo News.

"It is simply not acceptable that so many of our pilots are waiting — in some cases for weeks — for a significant amount of the wages they have already earned," the Air Line Pilots Association unit at Pinnacle told its members in the memo.

Meanwhile, the $1.7 million consulting arrangement with departing CEO Philip H. Trenary and the $250,000 raise for his successor, Sean E. Menke, were spelled out in filings that Pinnacle made with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

The pilot pay problem, combined with the money made by Pinnacle's top executives, outraged family members of the victims of Continental Connection Flight 3407. Pinnacle owns Colgan Air, which operated the regional flight that crashed in Clarence Center in February 2009, killing 50 people.

"I don't know if shortchanging employees' pay is a common occurrence when a company is contemplating bankruptcy, but messing with the pilots' pay strikes me as a dangerous thing to do," said Susan Bourque, whose sister Beverly Eckert, a 9/11 activist, was killed in the crash. "On top of that, you wonder if this is just the tip of the iceberg."

The March 29 memo from the union indicated that the pilot pay problems began at Colgan last May but have spread throughout Pinnacle this year with the installation of a new payroll software system.

Captain Tom Wychor, chairman of the pilots union at Pinnacle, termed the problems "very extensive."

Some pilots find their base salary missing from their paychecks, Wychor said, while others are missing their overtime or per diem payments.


"In the end, pilots are getting paid, and the company is making them whole, but sometimes when these problems occur it takes weeks to get a response from the company," Wychor said.

In some cases, pilots "don't have enough money to pay their mortgage" because of the payroll problems, Wychor said.

The typical Pinnacle captain makes between $60,000 and $70,000 a year, but the average co-pilot earns only $30,000, with a base salary of about $28,000.

That's far more than the $16,000 that Rebecca L. Shaw, the co-pilot on Flight 3407, earned back in the days when Colgan did not yet have a union contract. But Wychor said Pinnacle pilots struggle if they go without pay, given that many have student loan debts of about $150,000.

A personnel shortage at Pinnacle is partly to blame for the company's failure to respond to pilots who have complained of lost pay, but the union said the company has also ignored its offers to work on the problem together.

"The fact that we still have pilots who have received neither any response nor pay is nothing less than a complete fiasco," the union memo said.Asked for an explanation of the pay problems, Pinnacle spokesman Joe Williams blamed them on the new payroll system and efforts to consolidate payroll activities at Pinnacle and its Colgan and Mesaba subsidiaries.

"We experienced some implementation issues that impacted paychecks for some pilots," Williams said. "Pinnacle is taking the situation very seriously and working quickly to correct those problems."

The revelations about Pinnacle's pilot pay problems come a year after Trenary left the company's top job — while signing a two-year, $1.7 million consulting contract with Pinnacle.

"I don't believe there's been a better time in several years to change the leadership here," he told Aviation Week when he departed a year ago. "It's very stable right now."

That turned out not to be the case.

Pinnacle filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection Sunday, saying that it would otherwise be in danger of running out of operating cash by mid-April.

The company blamed its problems on labor costs, problems integrating its purchase of Mesaba Airlines into the rest of the company, and unprofitable contracts with the major airlines that it serves. In its bankruptcy filing, Pinnacle said that it was part of a "race to the bottom" among regional carriers that have to bid low in order to win the business of the major airlines.

Ironically, that's the same phrase that the Flight 3407 families have used in warning that regional airlines may risk safety to cut costs.

Pinnacle's cost-cutting, however, does not extend to executive salaries. In a filing March 20 with the SEC, the troubled airline said that it was increasing Menke's salary from $425,000 to $675,000. The chief operating officer, John G. Spanjers, will see his pay hiked from $275,000 to $400,000.

The raises "reflect additional responsibilities" the two men picked up because of the departure of other Pinnacle executives as well as the company's restructuring.

That restructuring will involve "achieving cost savings from its workforce," Pinnacle said in the news release announcing its bankruptcy filing. The company has already said that it is seeking a 5 percent pay cut from employees.

That move drew the ire of the Flight 3407 families, who have contended that low pilot salaries at regional airlines have been among the factors that have made them less safe than the big carriers.

Wychor said the pilots union was willing to meet with management "to find solutions to actual problems," but he added: "Those solutions need to maintain contract standards that attract and retain quality pilots."

Meanwhile, the union's memo advised Pinnacle pilots to keep a cool head:

"Despite the fact that you have every right to be frustrated and angry, please continue to focus on continuing to perform your job with the same level of professionalism and focus on safety that has made us successful so far. We will likely be facing more challenges in the months to come, and our ability to do our jobs safely and reliably will play a very important role in our collective future."

-----

Big pay at the top
Pinnacle Airlines is struggling to pay its pilots, but:

Last year it agreed to give outgoing CEO Philip Trenary $1.7 million in severance.
Last month it boosted the salary of current CEO Sean Menke from $425,000 to $675,000.
Last month it increased the pay of Chief Operating officer John Spanjers from $275,000 to $400,000.
Source: Security and Exchange Commission filings.

[email protected]

good read on Pinnacle and squeeze on labor

Saabs 04-06-2012 04:14 PM


Originally Posted by El10 (Post 1164985)
good read on Pinnacle and squeeze on labor

Our union conference call made it pretty clear that this bankruptcy was due to gross mismanagement. I am, however happy that less 70 seat planes will be flying for the new united and hope that you guys include turboprops in your scope clause this Time around.

Pinnacle management is a joke, and while most regionals are under section 6 negotiations we will be lowering the bar with a bankruptcy contract.

xjtguy 04-06-2012 07:46 PM


Originally Posted by contrail67 (Post 1164704)
And the passengers are ALOT happier...

Depends, some passengers want frequency. But yes, I agree, the passengers would be happier with mainline equipment. But they'd still bytch about a drop in frequency,

PBSG 04-06-2012 09:16 PM

Everytime I hear some managements excuse on why something has failed or why a company goes bankrupt I always think back to the old Scooby-Doo cartoons I watched as a kid - when they catch the villain at the end and he says "and I would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!"

visceral 04-07-2012 06:45 PM


Originally Posted by IAHB756 (Post 1164962)
Was just on a UAL 757-200 jumpseat last week. It is vastly different from our 757-200's and -300's and much different than the 767-400 but UAL/CAL pilots will be flying every type in the not too distant future. Over a 200,000 pound difference and vast display differences between the 764 and the 752 that I'm guessing trump the differences between a Dash 8-200 and -400.

Again, what is the definition of "quick". From the poster's comment, it would be easy to infer a quick one or two day course would be all that is required. That is not the case. I haven't flown the 75 or 76 so I can't comment on the differences training required for them. I would imagine it isn't quick though.


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