My source says next meeting is under the radar at the IFALPA conference.

Well, like it or not, we are stuck with each other. Time to put our "cultural differences" to bed fight for the collective group.

I am tired of hearing anything that prevents us from achieving a jcba. I will most definitely be tired of hearing it in the cockpit since it will only serve as a buzkill for my impending layover.

Some need to realize who the real enemy is.

Let's Rock and Roll

+1
I'm ready to walk. 10 years of bankruptcy wages has me really ****ed.

Doesn't really matter at this point, does it ? We either get released or we don't. If we don't, we spend another five years negotiating in "good faith" with co-worker Jeff. If we do, then you have a choice to make: scab or don't scab. Live with it.

Susan Carey from the WSJ?

Have you ever met her?

She's long been one of the best in the business.

Unfortunately it really does matter.

In the past ALPA has done some good things and some pretty dumb things. The TWA DFR comes to mind. That might bankrupt ALPA.

The way the strike vote was handled at CAL in '83 was also procedurally flawed. While they were dealing with "co-worker Lorenzo" back then, not much has changed. No one likes the way the strike vote came down. While it was a job action and all that goes with it, it was ill-timed, and poorly planned.

I don't see Lee Moak, a very conservative, and non-confrontational ALPA President violating CBL just so we can "live with it." This would be the end of ALPA if he screws it up, and while TWA may bankrupt ALPA, a goof up here would drive it into the ground in less than 90 days.

Let's be careful what we "live with."

I am all for a release and the requisite job action, but that can only legally go one of three ways:

1. UAL gets released
2. CAL gets released
3. CAL/UAL both get released

Right now, Happner is only asking for HIS UAL pilots. If the UAL has a seperate section 6 process that was formally opened, then that is fine.

BTW, CAL MEC currently does have a seperate and legally binding section 6 position with the NMB and has since 2008. Not sure if UAL does.

We can do it jointly or alone, but it would be better if both MEC's get on the same page and pretty quick.

Let's do this UCAL pilots!!! OUR profession has been dragged through the mud for way too long. Now is OUR chance to improve the lives of ALL UAL/CAL pilots and their families and make our profession one we are proud of once again. UCH is the largest airline in the world. Your CEO is compensated as such. NOW it's YOUR turn!

I think it is a great move by the UAL MEC. Each pilot group has to take the information they have in-front of them and make decisions that will set a course for success. In this case United management continues to take advantage of a concessionary contract. The UAL pilots have had enough... How much longer should they have to wait it has been 10 yrs!

If the UAL ALPA pilots are successful this will set a mark in the industry that shopping for profits from pilots W2 is not acceptable. The message will be sent industry wide that the concessions are old news and we aren't going to take it.

I will gladly join the UAL pilots at my nearby airport and walk the line.

Let's keep our eye on the ball people.

Legal question: Does this mean that if the UAL pilots are released to self-help, the CAL pilots would be legally prohibited from honoring their picket line because of the "status quo" rule? That unpleasant scenario could be avoided if the two MECs put their differences behind them and unite now.

No Status quo would only last 30 days the UniCal do have the right to follow and need to follow the UAL pilots.

Thanks. I knew that the UAL pilots' "status quo" rule would expire after 30 days, but I wondered if the CAL pilots might be blocked from action by their own "status quo" requirement, since they are currently working under a different contract. If both groups get a simultaneous release, of course, it's not an issue.

Ready to go

Where's the statement from Jay Pierce? This is like 9-11 when Bush ran around hiding until Dick told him it was okay to come home. We need to hear from our leader and get prepared to be released as one 10,000 strong pilot group.

Classic Movie Line #51 - YouTube

He's trying to figure the right spin so he still get's his office adjoining co-worker Jefff's.

I fear this time he is hiding behind Lee Moak. This does not bode well for ALPA.

If L-UAL pilots left ALPA, would the injunction still be enforceable?

RLA and Norris-LaGuardia Act
 

Tom,

Therein lies the potential "rub" in such a circumstance.

Without getting too deep into either of the Acts, there is nothing in the RLA or Norris-LaGuardia Act that prohibits "honoring" a picket line. So, while this is all currently a hypothetical scenario, yes, CAL pilots could go on a "sympathy" strike and honor the UAL pilot's picket line legally.

Such sympathy strikes are not forbidden in anyway; however, that does not mean that the company would not file to enjoin the CAL pilots if they elected to do so.

The precedent is there (Eastern vs ALPA) from when the pilots elected to honor the IAM picket lines in early 1989. Unfortunately, even though the case went to appeal to get the ruling, Eastern prevailed because they were able to prove ALPA's pretext through its formal statements made to the membership. In other words, able to get the court to consider ALPA's sympathy strike (legal) as merely a pretext for its own agenda (getting released) and using the opportunity to engage in self help before all provisions of the RLA had been exhausted with regards to ALPA.

Clear as mud?

Frats,
Lee

Do you really see ual going on strike without cal going also, sorry I just don't see that happening.

Does anyone else find it interesting that ALPA national (Moak) has been silent regarding Heppner's direction to submit the paperwork for release? I have to believe that if ALPA national was in favor of doing so, they would be making a big deal about this. To me, their silence is telling.

My sources tell me that ALPA National has put the UAL MEC on "ice."

Further, UCH management is pretending like UAL MEC didn't request anything. It's like a "do-over" it never happened. They are just pressing on doing what they do. Just a minor speed bump for both UCH Management, and ALPA National. CAL MEC just sort of hung out to dry.

To make matters worse, the members of the UAL JNC never even knew about the request from the UAL MEC MC to be released. They had to read about it same as the CAL MEC and everyone else. That's a pretty big "blind side."

Just a weird thought here....but here goes..........

We work for the largest airline in the world. It has been deemed "too big to fail." I don't think Obama will let you get released. No way can he afford to see 10,000 plus rise in unemployment figures in an election year.

We may be "too big to get released" unfortunately.

Obama doesn't make the decision to release us or not. He may well stop a strike with an emergency stop order after the cooling period however.

Obama will not get reelected without the support of unions, if he prevents one from exercising their lawful right to self help, he doesn't have a prayer in November. The majority of union members in the united states have no idea what hoops airline employees have to go thru before being able to strike.

Syd,

No, I don't think so either. It would be, IMHO, the worst of all possible outcomes for all parties, and somebody would probably cut a deal before that happens.

Lee,

Thanks for the historical note. I thought it was clear and informative.

Actually, Continental pilots contract specifically states that they aren't required to cross a legal picket line (UAL contract has a similar clause). No excuses.

Obama will be all over it. No way he lets "his people" let us get within 200 miles of a cooling off period.

That's what I used to think. If this was small fry Airlines I would agree with you.

Note that ALPA National has not informed the NMB...........

So, essentially the UAL press release never happened. It looks like National ALPA doesn't want to go forward with this plan of action.

Any reasons why or why not?

What is Moak and the Executive Council thinking?

Keep your eye on "company man" Dave Zullo

He was the guy that went on on his own and single handedly negotiated the two POS side letters that would have given away scope to management at CAL.

He did this with no direction or supervision from the CAL MEC.

He anonymously joined the CAL MEC Negotiating Committee, which was somehow approved by Pierce, and never informed the CAL MEC that he was working on a so called "furlough mitigation LOA" (yes another one). Then he brings this document to the MEC and wants the MEC to approve it in about 10 minutes after reading it.

No questions, no legal review, just sign it.

No one signed it..........

Then, he goes out for round 2, all the while as serving as the scheduling chairman and negotiates another one. Who approved him to do this?

Anyway, that LOA gets shot down too. Thankfully CA. Brandano was on the MEC from Newark and shined the light on this little scum bag. After his secret LOA was shot down he and his "buddy" stormed out of the MEC. Zullo resigned from the NC (a position in which he never had in the first place). The MEC would never put him on the NC because they smelled a rat.

Zullo's got the data......You better believe he took it all with him. As far as I am concerned Zullo's a scab. He crossed over to the other side during negotiations and I think he is a double scab.

Now, what about his little buddy that stormed out with him. Well, he was on the NC, and thankfully Farrow quit too after he was "outed."

There won't be a release for a host of reasons, the least of which being the UAL MEC has royally ***ed off the NMB. That's the gateway to a release and given that there was some sort of agreement and then the MEC dropped the "PR firm" issue publicly last week...they're toast with NMB and the WH. Everyone on Capitol Hill is ticked off on one hand and laughing hysterically as well.

Moak is as clueless as he is over a barrel. If he didn't sign off on paying for the "PR" firm...he got threatened with an immediate decert. He knows it's gonna happen anyway. And in the meantime, four offices at Mass Avenue have been given to the "big guys" to use, and FPL approved, so they can lobby Congress for whatever they feel like to placate them.

Moak also has a bigger problem. The person assigned to try and negotiate a steelement with the TWA pilots has screwed it up worse than Hogan's goat. Expect it to go to a jury award instead. For a LOT more than 1.3 billion. The same guy who tried to be "kingmaker" to everyone before the last BOD, thinking it would make him the indespensable lawyer. Sad thing is that he's a pilot union lawyer who really doesn't like pilots.

Union support? AFL is pretty disjointed right now and ALPA isn't seen in the greatest light after Prater and now Moak. It's going to be pretty tough selling a pilot strike to a construction worker who hasn't seen a paycheck in months. Truth is, it's always been tough to sell a pilot strike to AFL members. And given the current politics, whether you personally like the current POTUS or not, labor is going to think long and hard about being a part of anything that gives control of things to Boehner/Cantor/McConnell and the gang.

CAL? Could possibly go in sympathy, but if they're under a seperate CBA and not knowing their "no strike" language, they could be compelled to fly their own equipment on their own routes.

Sadly this whole thing looks like it was not thought through very well. Plan "A" may be a good idea, but you better have a "B" "C" and "D" backup.

The lawyer you spoke of: Luby, Johnson, Kats??? Who was that?

The whole "king maker" thing you speak of. I agree with you, but I was thinking there were some "pilot king makers" working on this, never aware of the attorney you spoke of. If I had to guess, I thought it would be the guy that used to work for ALPA that is not a lawyer. The guy who is now the "advisor" who started his own company who did those touchey-feeley-motivational things? That "smart guy"...what's his name?

Can we get a do-over and get that Fed Ex guy? I was done with Prater after he got the CAL MEC to go out and promise mainline jobs to commuter pilots in exchange for votes to make him the king. look what that has done to the entire career at the majors. thanks Prater.

now Moak...........geez we're screwed.

Thanks for your opinion. But that's all it is, an opinion.

Let me just tell you this. If Moak doesn't act there is going to be a huge push to decertify ALPA at L-UAL. The general attitude over here is that enough is enough and the fuse is getting very short.

This is the best thing that can happen. Hopefully Delta will follow right behind you guys.

That should settle the matter, but pro-management courts have been known to enjoin actions which are completely legal and allowed by the contract. Their reasoning: "Because you are in contract negotiations, we think you are attempting to circumvent the 'status quo' rule and pressure the company without getting a release."
Management carefully chooses such a court before filing its petition for injunctive relief.

CAL CBA language pertinent to strikes:

Part 6 - Labor Disputes
A. It will not be a violation of the Agreement, and it will not be cause for discharge,
permanent replacement or any other disciplinary action if any Continental Pilot:

1. Refuses to operate “struck-work Company Flights,” meaning that:
a. The pilots of a carrier party to a Code-Share Agreement, Marketing
Agreement, Reciprocal Livery Agreement, or Revenue/Profit Sharing
Agreement are engaged in a lawful strike, and
b. In any rolling thirty (30) day period following the commencement of
the strike, the Company increases flights under the applicable
agreement and/or flights operated under the designator code of the
struck carrier or its Affiliates, measured against such Company flying
during the thirty (30) day period that ends two (2) full months before
the commencement of the strike; provided that this provision will not
apply to increased flights that were scheduled by the Company prior to
and irrespective of the existence of the lawful strike.

Provided, that it will not be considered to be performing struck-work Company
Flights to expand Company flying from Company Hubs or to continue to
transport passengers and/or cargo or mail within its route structure on its own
aircraft so long as the code or other designation of the struck carrier is not
placed on additional Company flights as described in Paragraph 1, and for any
such expanded flying of the Company:

a. The Company receives all of the revenue for the services it performs,
and
b. No financial benefit accrues to the struck carrier as a result of the
Company’s performance of such services, and
c. City pairs operated by the struck carrier are not initiated by the
Company during the strike at the request of the struck carrier, or

2. Refuses to cross or chooses to honor the lawful picket lines of employees
employed by the Company, or any Affiliate of the Company; or
3. Refuses to undergo training or perform pilot work or services on the property
of another carrier during a lawful strike by that carrier’s pilots; or
4. Refuses to perform training of pilots for service as strike replacement pilots.

I am just curious how long a decert effort could/would take? Then how much time would be lost at the negotiation table as new elections with the NMB etc and new elections of pilots in a new TBD union?

I am not a UAL pilot but isn't the issue more of the company stalling and not the negotiators trying to get the pilots a deal? Frustration after 10 yrs of hell that UAL has been through but I don't see any other union doing anything in the industry that is leading the way either.

My 2 cents.

Company stalling yes, but if Moak doesn't send in the request to the NMB, then we are stuck in limbo forever. Moak's ambivalence and silence has been more than dissapointing. Remember when he got elected, his #1 priority was the UAL contract. Decertification and new union would be quicker than perpetual pergatory.

Agreed, if Moak doesn't go along with this, ALPA at L-UAL is probably done.

Thanks.. Hoping something moves for you guys.