"those truly elected by the pilots" -Don't know about that one!

This new found unity is nothing more than smoke, mirror, deflection and diverting. This is all political for LM and JP is still doing the company's bidding. JH is along for the ride because he just got played by LM and JP. No other way to spin it. Any leverage we had was just neutralized by his actions - Sad to see him cave so easily.

Should've known you are an ORD guy. Makes sense now. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Wendy hadn't dorked up the initial stages of this merger so badly.

Man I wish I could have put it as well as you did. Well said. As soon as he pulled out the West Coast vs ORD comment, it all fell into place.

How's Wallach doing? Is he still not wearing his hat or did he decide to leave. Your boy is not doing so well with the light weights LM and JP - Why? I know, it must be Wendy's fault. You guys caused this with the JH appointment so I'm guessing you'll fix it. You talk a good game why not take and accept responsibility - JH is yours.

And we'll take him. At least he has the balls to actually try something. Quite unlike the other guys and gal.

Ditto from me .. Heppner is the ONLY one that isn't blowing sunshine up our B@@#S that negotiations are all hunky dory.

Who's talking about Wallach?? What does he have to do with any of this? The hat switch was a total and complete joke. See? To me it's about PERFORMANCE, not some High School Gossip Girls episode about which domicile the MC is from. If Wendy had performed, I'd have been behind her 100%. She failed in MISERABLE fashion. She and JP took the only really good leverage we had and wasted it by believing management promises about a quick contract. Ask her how many ALPA reps she had in the DOJ's office during the approval process.

I will more than happily claim JH as my leader. Not because I'm a West Coast pilot, but because I'm a UNITED pilot, and I want a new freaking contract. I don't think JH failed in the least. He forced the issue. One that JP and LM CLEARLY didn't want forced. When June 15th comes around and we don't have a TA (which we won't), where are they going to hide then? They can't claim that they didn't know it was coming!! His move exposed the weak leadership of JP and LM in one stroke of the pen. The pilots at both airlines now know what is going on, and it looks like JH's move will be able to be made with the unity we NEED. Time will tell whether JH's strategy fully pays off in mid June. Time has already exposed Wendy's strategy as a total, complete, miserable failure. In two years, we were further from getting a contract when Wendy left than when she took office. And you want to recall JH!?!?!?! For what?!? Your politics are killing your mind. Wake up and get on board, or be quite and get out of the way.

You got me, I guess old people tend to repeat themselves, thanks for bringing it up though, so... let me pontificate. Most of what is happening today is reminiscent of 1985. We had the same type of naysayers then and they made a strong case not to strike. They whined, that the pilots were not ready, we could not win with a Repub President, we would be replaced like the CAL pilots and the controllers, we would kill the golden goose, the 570 was just waiting to take our jobs and unions were obsolete.

I guess judging how we did in "85" is a matter of perspective. Given that in "83" we were drinking gin with Ferris under the wing of the spruce goose and we had just given him our work rules with the blue Sky's contract, it was remarkable that we convinced the pilots to turn on mother United. To take a pilot group out on strike in that environment and bring them back without losing a single job, was, for me anyway, a measure of success. No one believed we would do it, few thought we would be successful. When it was over, United pilots had unity and the respect of our peers. We also demonstrated that if we did it once, we could do it again.

Don't get me wrong, no one wants a strike, it is a failure of negotiations and rarely does it result an economic benefit for either party. Nevertheless, unless management is convinced that a union will stop their revenue stream, they are unlikely to give you spit. That fact has not changed since the industrial revolution of the 19th century, much less then since 1985.

Unity is not just an empty word, tell a manager "you don't care what the issues are, you will do what the union tells you." That drives them absolutely freaking nuts. However, privately, knowing who in your leadership works for you and who works for them is equally important.

Now, aren't you glad that you asked grandpa "hows the weather?"

Baron50

I've been on board since day one. Why don't you ask Baron50 how JH ended up being the default to satisfy the West Coast LEC's. Wendy resigned to get the lesser of the evils from the West Coast. While Wendy was in office, it was your West Coast LEC's along with a few DCA members that hounded Wendy and sided with JP to undermine her efforts. Why you ask, to satisfy your boy Wallach and his supporters - revenge.

Now I want a contract just like ever United pilot and your saying JH has a master plan to expose the evil LM and JP - One question what does that get us except the middle of June and no contract. The CAL guys know what JP is and were willing to join the UAL guys behind JH if he was going to lead. What did he do?

We have a disfunctional leadership on both sides and a clown in LM at ALPA National worried about his own position above all else - you want me to be quite and get out of the way - I don't think so!

Don't try to make this personal. I want a good contract and will follow the person that can lead us to that end. You may want to start watching over your shoulder, it's possible that LM and JP have put a plan in place to get the CAL contract re-negotiated and then imposed on the UAL side. Remember they did this to NWA. June 15 gives JP and Jeff more than enough time to get it done.

You kind of gutted what I said, so that's a misquote in my book.

I suspect we'll never know what was said during that meeting, but I'm going to assume it was at least productive, whether in terms of moving things either way: Strike or Settlement. But I think it was a catalyzing event, either way. I certainly hope so, anyway.

I would hope that there was some discussion as to whom might be the MEC chairman in the event of a JCBA is reached, also.

We've all waited plenty long for this to even go this far, so yes, I'm cautiously optimistic. Oops, I said it again.

TW

LM a clown? He led the DAL/NWA MEC through a merger, and as a result those NWA guys that you allege he hosed, are sitting with pay rates 26% higher today than they had at the time of the merger. Plus 6% more DC. 32% raise in compensation in 4 years. And if DAL MEC Chairman TO's letter is to be believed, its about to soon go higher still.

Meanwhile, what have you guys done? :mad:

I'll take being "thrown under that bus" any day.

Different company! If the Delta management had wanted to work/move in the direction that United management has taken - even your Delta buddies would have been hosed. Don't come on the forum and try to sell LM when the biggest effort to get ride of ALPA and LM is coming from the Delta side.
Congratulations on the pay raises - you guys have always had a better relationship with management and it wasn't due to LM!

Once United:

Your posts are starting to look like that Neil Swindells guy over at the private blog. If you are you're one of those guys who is never pleased and the cup is never even half full.

Please treat othesr in the sand box a little better.

I'm sure you've heard the old adage:

"Every management gets the union they deserve"

The inverse is true as well.

Lee initiated the "proactive engagement" philosophy, and many of the radicals at Delta are still whining about it. But no one can dispute the dividends that that strategy has produced for all, including those whiners...

Very true PG. Good to see you on here.

Congratulations on the pay raises - Guess you missed that. The "proactive engagement" your boy LM used at DAL was more a gun to the head of the NWA guys. Guess you could say he was working for management against the NWA guys. Is that what you are encouraging the UAL pilots to accept. The UAL pilots will not go for LM and JP trying sign and force the CAL contract on the UAL pilots. As I recall didn't the DAL MEC tell the NWA MEC to take it or go away!

If someone wants to put a gun to my head to accept a 32% pay raise, they are more than welcome to.

Meanwhile, you guys keep the chest thumping going; the Delta MEC is going to continue its work to restore the pay and working conditions of the industry. :mad:

Our previous MEC chairwoman initiated the "proactive engagement" (her exact words BTW) philosophy as well. Umm, did not work.:mad: The company took our engagement, lied to us, took advantage, and is in the process of screwing us on a daily basis. Why do we not have a contract under the proactive engagement philosophy? It is worthless in the Smisek regime; which you apparently know nothing about... wanna trade CEOs?

Didn't think so.

I see old Stepford Airlines has entered the fray, that ought to clear things up.

Seriously, you have them where you want them now, relax, take a deep breath and fly the airplane.
There will be plenty of time later to distinguish the heroes from the hamburger.

To quote Smizek..."you guys did not sacrifice enough."

I'm trying to see what you bring to the table to help the UAL/CAL pilots - I don't see anything. You walked into a good contract because your management wanted to make it work - not because LM did some fancy bargaining. I don't think he offered up the NWA pilots, but he didn't get in the way to protect their rights either. The NWA pilots had a gun to their heads and will never be your friend - they'll tolerate you though.

Believe it or not but the only thing the Delta pilot have on the UAL pilot is pay. We still beat you hands-down on working conditions. I believe your work rules may even be worst than CAL's, but we are going to fix CAL's and the pay issues as well.

LM is not the wizard you make him out to be. Have you noticed how the PAC funds have been decreasing since he took office. Your efforts to decertify ALPA may be wasted as LM is NOT doing a good job of representing the profession and is helping it die a slow death. We are 2 years into this and you think it's "chest thumping" that's delaying the process - enjoy your pat raise!

Hey Piña;

I'm not sure if by saying "the inverse is true", you mean to imply that tough unionism makes management respond in kind (get stingy, use aggressive junior man tactics to staff every weekend, decrease pay and whittle away at work rules) or not, but if that is what you meant I have to take issue based on personal experience. Combative unionism at either L-CAL or L-UAL factored in little and contributed nothing in the way of molding the current managerial philosophy. Maybe you can explain what you meant a little more?

If they're not making REAL progress on the contract, it will be obvious WELL BEFORE the 15 Jun deadline. THAT is when we press forward with (HOPEFULLY), or without, the CAL leadership. At that point, nobody will be able to claim ignorance, unfairness, surprise, or any other bs excuse.

I think this is playing out just fine for now.

There's no way this is NS... The posts are too short and he never says "you can't make this stuff up'.

Thanks for the huge thread drift. So far, LM has been a worthless a$$clown as far as I'm concerned.

Just make sure you don't sell out more scope on you're way to restoring the pay and working conditions of the industry.

We were kind of hoping you guys would put another rung in the ladder to help us with the climb.........:o

Hey Delta brothers, do you know what FLIBS means?

I thought the CAL guys were exaggerating when they warned us...sadly, they were not.

Well Baron like I said before I like that the mec's are at least sounding like they might work together as this is the only was we will have success, especially if we start talking a srike. If it would be one side it would not last 3 days.

Back to 1985 since you live in the past and always slapping yourself on the back on how great that was.

I do agree it was amazing that alpa did get us to go on strike considering all that was going on in the industry and all that was as stake, for that I commend them. It stops pretty quick after that however.

I felt like there was nothing won, please don't keep telling me how no pilots lost there job. We had jobs to begin with to not lose a job to me is not a success. We basically had the same contract offered prior to the strike that we settled on. By the way in case you forgot we also went back to work without some pilots. If you remember we left them to the court system. That was after the famous we won't go back without you comments. What our union meant to say was we won't go back without you unless it gets tough. It took some many months to get back on the property and many years to have seniority restored.

Since you brought up that group, 570, please remember we had some cross from that group also and yes more than the 4 the union always mentions. We also had quite a few from that group work both sides of the fence during the strike, something else that was not supposed to happen. I am not talking about dumpster work I am talking about agree to go to work and then using some lame excuse to delay, not something that was supposed to take place.

Then we had another group in training, the 539 and yes they were there to replace all the pilots. As it turned out they were put in front of only one group as replacments and yes they ended up being union members. Remember alpa talking about who would be considered a sc-- and how it kept changing? If you go to training was then if you complete training and then if you turn a wheeel and then if you turn a wheel after ioe, yea great if you were a sleez bag trying to climb over you fellow pilots.

We also even allowed brown suiters and fleet qual back into the union.

I felt the strike ended as the amnount of brown suiters that were pushing to go back and alpa realizing it would collapse. Nice unity.

As I look around the property and listen I see even less unity at this point and many more "groups" Can they get pulled together, maybe, but not without bot mec working together.

One last comment on unity. When I see some dal folks showing up in this discussion. I am confident that they will bring all of us boxes of donuts if we walk just like 1985. Yes that same unity that was tripping over themselves in the hopes that we never came out of bankruptcy. Oh yea unity, this is some "union" I don't know if you have ever belonged to another union or not but this one always feels more like a country club.

I was (and still AM) hoping the same thing! Unfortunately we're stuck with ANOTHER group of sr managers who are determined to save a buck off the backs of the employees instead of making WAY more money the hard way :( Sometimes I think we're actually cursed by the natural strength of our route structure and customer base. If these guys actually HAD to do a good job to make a profit I bet things would be different.

We shall see how this will go.

"but we are going to fix CAL's and the pay issues as well." Fix yous scope first. I would take CAL s pay and work rules over UALs work rules and SCOPE or lack of any day of the week.

"but we are going to fix CAL's and the pay issues as well." Fix your scope first. I would take CAL s pay and work rules over UALs work rules and SCOPE or lack of any day of the week

Houston we have problem! I will not take either. We are no longer in negotiations with a BK judge overseing a BK management team...notice I did not say a BK company.....Industry leading JCBA is all I will settle for!

Exactly...

Ah, the “glass half full - glass half empty” you and I.

You are not alone with feelings that “there was nothing won,” that view is shared by many. I will disagree, it just may be a case of where you were in life when the strike went down. The management types hated us, they hated the strike, and to this day think nothing was accomplished. The 570 / 539 groups certainly look at it differently than I do. No doubt they would have preferred not to have been put into those untenable positions. As a junior brown suiter, frustrated by years of stagnation, surpluses, furloughs and the Ferris threats, I was very satisfied the pilot culture had changed from the previous passive, “blue skies era” to active trade unionism. I suppose, one way to measure the success of a strike is “would you do it again.” I would not hesitate to say absolutely!

It seems everyone that was involved is a bit of a revisionist, not to say they are intentionally misleading, but memories fade and can be selective. For that reason, and the fact that I still have two file boxes of VHS video, as well as the 27th anniversary this month, I would like to correct a few items that you brought up.

First, the reason for the strike, as you correctly stated, was not about incumbent pay; that was already settled. It was one issue - would a B-scale merge at Captain - have the corrosive effect on unity to drag incumbent wages down in the future. The brown suiters were not being altruistic, they knew the consequences for them of the two tier pay scheme. Contrary to management thinking, we did not throw the young under the bus as they expected and the AA pilots had done. So, in this regard, we were successful, albeit management reinvented the b-scale with the RJ’s in the 90’s and ultimately succeeded in reducing pilot compensation.

Next is a fable, often repeated by the union haters, that the MEC told the 570 “we won’t go back without you,” That never happened, however, some rank and file may have said that in a strong emotional sign of support for what the 570 had done. If ALPA had made that promise, it would have resulted in an unfair labor practices win for the company. Legally, we could not have stayed on strike solely for the 570. We did not represent them under the RLA and they were aware of that fact. Our attorneys advised that their status would be decided by a court and that a NLRB decision, “New England Tank,” would likely prevail. Initially we won that issue, unfortunately the appeals court overruled the district court. Second guessing is easy, but in reality, there was no other alternative. We did not give up on the 570, they were hired and we negotiated their rightful longevity and seniority, in spite of the s__b lawsuits, it just took awhile longer. Very few 570’s thought a settlement, for what would have become a permanent B-scale, was a better alternative. And, some did cross the line, no doubt for all the same lame, weak and greedy reasons, but their percentages were similar to the incumbents.

Regarding the 539, in the fog of a strike, mistakes are made. In the days of 300 baud modems we had some misinformation floating around. People heard what they wanted to hear and a few in the leadership did not keep the message consistent. So, you are correct, it was messy, sorry. The people who went to work clearly understood what they were doing. The majority of 539 did exactly as they were told; not to cross the line. It did not matter what they signed or told the managers. Later in the strike, the concept of “not turn a wheel” was invented. This was part of an effort to recover some of these people for the next strike. If they were inside the fence on June 14, 1985, well…you decide.

I didn’t see that, certainly we all wanted it over. We could have continued the strike, and there would have been a few more crossers at the 30 day mark, but even in ‘85’ they could not train replacements quick enough to be a threat. We knew when we had to pull it down, we were not at that point when it ended. Unlike the CAL pilots, who were still on strike, we were not going to make the same mistake and walk off a cliff. We had accomplished the goal that we set at the beginning. The strike may have ended, but if you recall the fight did not end for another two years.

It was the emotional overhang of the strike that moved the pilots to donate a month’s salary to fund ESOP-I resulting in the dumping of Dick Ferris. That in turn ended the ill conceived Allegis travel company concept, a plan to siphon airline money into hotels and rent-a-cars rather than invest into the core airline business

We had all the same drama and politics back then, but we put all that aside for a common purpose. Guess what, the 85 strike must have left a mark, you all are still talking about it today.

Baron50

I think you have selective memory to make you feel better Baron, I guess that is fine, but yes I was right there on the line and do not remeber it the same as you.

As far as me talking about it today nope, only when it comes up from folks like you that continue to pat themselves on tha back.

I can't go over all this again, so go on beleive what you need to beleive to make yourself feel better.

Good luck.

Ok, well someone has to do it, I am sure mankind will be better for your effort.:)

Baron50