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UniCal and the future of RJs
Old UAL CA made a statement on the thread "Delta TA Overview" that wasn't well received. It was brief but I think what he is trying to say is that market forces are very difficult to overcome regarding the direction this often bizarre and tumultuous industry goes. We are in a great time of change in this industry and the Delta TA (for good or bad) is a watershed moment and a turning point in the future of the major/regional airline industry. Now before everyone gets their pitchforks and nooses out, lets look at whats going on here and think about what is best for our collective future as a soon to be unified pilot group.
Should the UniCal JNC be considering the Delta scope TA? I think most would resoundingly say no, I don't think they have much of a choice and I'm not here to argue for or against what is before the Delta pilots-plenty of threads doings that. But lets look at WHY the Delta TA is what it is and why I believe our pilots groups will have to consider it's implications (especially in negotiations). Folks, our future at UCH comes down to one main factor these days and that is the cost of petroleum. It is has steadily become the driving force behind where our industry is headed and the Delta TA is really a statement about the future effect strategists believe fuel prices will have on this business. Let's look at orders for airplanes. Bulging at the seams for Busses and 737's, hardly noticeable for the 90-130 seat range and a massive order looming for the 76 seaters IF the Delta scope TA prevails across this industry. I'm not arguing for or against, so don't get that idea. So why the tepid 90-130 orders in the US? Because fuel prices are driving the majors to actually reduce their reliance on regional feed over time and direct that flying back to the next gen Busses and 737's that will become huge RJ's with single class high density seating. You run the numbers as fuel goes $150, $200, $250 a barrel and you'll see a strategy. However, there will always be places the big guys have zip interest in going and just like SWA has no interest. In steps the Delta style regional vision (be it jet or prop) as these 50 seaters die slowly in the scrap yard. My point is fuel is by far the greatest factor in our future and it will dictate where we go, what we buy and who flies what. We can beat our chests all day and think that as pilots we are critical to fleet decisions, however we are insignificant to petrol and the effect it has on our careers, the careers of regional pilots, your friend's and families' lifestyle and fortune, the future of the US economy or the destiny of the whole damn planet?! There has been a lot of consistent chatter that the JNC is in a similar position as the Delta guys have now publicly been put in. The decision is to minimize the effect on our careers fuel is going to have as airplanes have to become bigger, more densely packed and required to generate cash flow through a multitude of sources. From all the factors that are aligning in the industry as of late when you put them together it begins to form a picture of a future that is clearly painted through the brush of fuel prices...and because of this negotiations regarding scope are going to center on the need for the 70 seat RJ to fly where a 50 used to go less frequently as majors shift mainline flying back to high density seating narrow bodies. Is this not what the essence of the Delta TA scope section is about? Could it be the very same issue our JNC is grappling with now? Things have a funny way of falling into place suddenly in this business. Things are moving very fast now that this TA is public. Pilots have traditionally been rather lacking in their long term strategic thinking but we need to change that. We have to think farther than to the next contract and look at where the aircraft orders are going and why. Again, I'm not for or against. I just think rather than get preoccupied with things right before our nose, we need to be better long term strategic thinkers for our careers sake. We need to support the JNC and our union as it maybe :p, through a long term strategic, well thought out decision making process. We need to be more rational and less knee jerk with the blowhard forum antics. The reality is people, this industry is moving ahead very quickly and it is picking up speed very suddenly. We're going to miss the train if were scrabbling around the stockyard looking for pennies in the dirt. Fraternally, DV |
As a "service oriented" business, I find it interesting that management keeps giving the passengers EXACLTY WHAT THEY DON'T WANT! I don't know of too many folks who like flying RJ's, turboprops, or just commuters in general. (This is NOT a slam on the pilots who fly them............I've been there and done that.) But we continue to hear excuse after excuse of why we keep expanding the commuter network at the major's expense. My take on this? If our management wants to keep expanding the regional network, they need to be paid regional compensation. No wonder we're in the situation we're in.
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Originally Posted by dvhighdrive88
(Post 1193897)
..............I just think rather than get preoccupied with things right before our nose, we need to be better long term strategic thinkers for our careers sake. We need to support the JNC and our union as it maybe :p,
through a long term strategic, well thought out decision making process...................Fraternally, DV |
Originally Posted by dvhighdrive88
(Post 1193897)
Old UAL CA made a statement on the thread "Delta TA Overview" that wasn't well received.
It is interesting you have decided to start a new thread due to comments made on another thread in response to OLD CAL CA. Why? To me it seems that you are either a management hack or someone who really doesn’t understand the issues of Market and Scope as well as you think. BTW there is already a thread on Scope. Why the separate thread? I will repeat my response to Old Cal CA on this thread as well. My repose to was If you are saying RJs are what the Market is dictating then I have to disagree. I you are saying that most people that fly what the lowest cost airline ticket then I agree up to a point. While most customers want the best deal they still want a good product. In the airline business that is not flying on a RJ. The RJ issue is more about greed and not about giving the customers what they want. Southwest has and will continue to thrive because they give the customer what they want. When I say, Southwest, I mean the employees of SW give the customer what they want. The management at SW takes care of their employees. They count on the employees to take care of the customer. Here at UCH it is about management taking care of themselves. They have the attitude of screw the customer and screw the employee as long as they can line their pockets with cash. These temporary airline CEOs and their underlings are a plague on the industry. They are a like a STD. We will never be cured of them. |
Airline management determines the aircraft/market mix. The argument presented above describes a possible outcome.
Our concern should be that we, the pilots of United Airlines, fly those planes. We have endured the scorched earth over the last 11 years. I have lost all self respect as a pilot and will be damned to allow any further erosion on scope/jv's/codesharing. |
Originally Posted by SpecialTracking
(Post 1193967)
Airline management determines the aircraft/market mix. The argument presented above describes a possible outcome.
Our concern should be that we, the pilots of United Airlines, fly those planes. We have endured the scorched earth over the last 11 years. I have lost all self respect as a pilot and will be damned to allow any further erosion on scope/jv's/codesharing. Concise & well said. +1 |
To try an answer the question of what the customer wants is outside the scope of our side of this business. Our responsibility is to fly the airplanes safely and smoothly for a fee. It really doesn't matter if they are RJs or A380s what does matter is how much we get paid to do it.
Now what does the customer really want? The best service for the cheapest cost. It is that simple. It is marketing's job to figure out the best mix of service for the price not mine. The whole reason for RJs is not to cut costs it is to provide the right number of seats in the market at a cost which will support and make a profit. UAL could put a 380 on the ORD to OMA route and probably even find a price which would fill every seat, but make a profit? Not my job to figure that out. Personally my opinion is; I will provide the customers under my command safety, smoothness and professional conduct the rest is up to marketing. Also if the customers would pay for First Class seating and service on all those RJ routes UAL would offer them in a heart beat. |
The issue with any airplane flying under the UAL banner is who will fly them and for how much.
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"Our United Customer Commitment"
"We are committed to providing a level of service to our customers that makes us a leader in the airline industry. We understand that to do this we need to have a product we are proud of and employees who like coming to work every day. Our goal is to make every flight a positive experience for our customers. Our United Customer Commitment explains our specific service commitments so that we can continue a high level of performance and improve wherever possible. The commitment explains our policies in a clear, consistent and understandable fashion. We have detailed training programs and system enhancements to support our employees in meeting these commitments, and we measure how well we meet them. Welcome on board United Airlines!" This is quoted off United's own website. Discuss SCOPE with your fellow employees. If we don't put a stop to this SCOPE debacle, we are selling our own jobs away for the carrot of a raise. We WILL get our "fair"(sarcasm) share with SCOPE protections. Half of our flying is done by non-united airline employees. "Lets Fly Together" is a farce. SCOPE, SCOPE, SCOPE! |
It is beyond me how or why any ual pilot would consider scope concessions. Self -defeatists are self defeating.:mad:
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We (The Entire Mainline Industry) Can NOT Give Up One Inch of SCOPE~
Once you give up any Scope, it will be almost impossible to get back... Once you give up any Scope, you have also just made it harder for the next group to hold the line. Once Airline A and their Pilot Group gives up Scope on the 70/76 seaters, then Airline B's Pilot Group will have to try and hold the line at 70/76 seaters.. and might actually end up moving it to 80 seaters! Then comes Airline C and the new line becomes 80/88 seaters... Then you throw in one bankruptcy, and you have 88 and 90 seaters being flown by the Regionals for some Mainline Carrier. Keep in mind, the 757's will be retired over the course of this decade. To be replaced by (most likely) 737 Max's. So the Company lures a Pilot group with the bid of "New Aircraft" for Scope relaxation- They buy some 73M's and maybe some CSeries or something similar.. and also throw in a 76 seater at a Regional. Now we see a 75 get parked and instead you're flying a 73M but someone below you is flying a CSeries and someone from another list is flying that 76 seaters.. You've taken a paycut, and that RJ Pilot is probably flying a 76 seater at 50 seat wages.. and next contract the company will tell you that they can't afford the rate on the CSeries (or equivalent). (If those "lure" aircraft even show up) Guys, please tell me you can all see the forest from amongst the trees~ Motch |
Originally Posted by cal73
(Post 1194103)
It is beyond me how or why any ual pilot would consider scope concessions. Self -defeatists are self defeating.:mad:
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Originally Posted by horrido27
(Post 1194187)
We (The Entire Mainline Industry) Can NOT Give Up One Inch of SCOPE~
Once you give up any Scope, it will be almost impossible to get back... Once you give up any Scope, you have also just made it harder for the next group to hold the line. Like the original poster stated, its time to start realistically managing expectations, thinking long term, and understanding the time value of money earned now, rather than 10 years from now. Good luck fellas |
Originally Posted by dvhighdrive88
(Post 1193897)
Let's look at orders for airplanes. Bulging at the seams for Busses and 737's, hardly noticeable for the 90-130 seat range and a massive order looming for the 76 seaters IF the Delta scope TA prevails across this industry. I'm not arguing for or against, so don't get that idea.
ALPA National doesn't care. Why? Because they represent regional pilots too. they would love for the regionals to grow more jobs and they would get more dues money to boot. Once we allow more RJ's, more of our jobs go away. We should NoT be looking at airplane orders. They can be cancelled or delayed. What will replace all of those B757's soon to be parked. 87 of them I beleive?? |
Originally Posted by Mwindaji
(Post 1193954)
It is interesting you have decided to start a new thread due to comments made on another thread in response to OLD CAL CA. Why?
The answer is easy. This is Pfrends of Pfred 101 folks. The senior bubbas and the grey beards at CAL (Old CAL Captains) nearly universally voted YES for POS 02. Why? Because they got to keep their A funds at the expnse of everyone else who lost time (time is money). We lost 5 years off our careers, 5 years of reduced earnings, and we lost our pensions due to a threat of a liquidity short fall. The only people who benefited from POS 02 were the senior grey-beards who froze their A funds and had their annuity or lump sum totally preserved with zero risk. The senior guys want us junior guys to vote YES for anything that gives them more money on their way out the door. They would sell their grandmother's funeral dress if it got them a few more dollars at our expense. I had one old CAL Captain tell me "screw scope" I am so senior scope won't bother me one bit. My response: "how many Airbus 330's would it take to get your attention being flown by offshored-outsourced labor? That doesn't bother me he says. Why not? I think once Jeffey sees the green light, he will expand his littler Aer Lingus Air Force and start taking out some real jobs and killing some real careers, Captains and Co-pilots alike will get hurt if the Aer Lingus thing is not killed. |
Originally Posted by dvhighdrive88
(Post 1193897)
Folks, our future at UCH comes down to one main factor these days and that is the cost of petroleum. It is has steadily become the driving force behind where our industry is headed and the Delta TA is really a statement about the future effect strategists believe fuel prices will have on this business.
Management should know that there cannot be any relaxation on us selling out our careers. If the future of this industry is no future at all, then lets have the airlines pay for us to go to law school or medical school and lets get out of this damn insulting rat-race. A relaxation of scope equates to a long and ball busting carrer at reduced wages with little opportunity for advancement in seat position, quality of life, or in earnings. It's a lose-lose for the pilot and a win-win for the institutional stock holder. |
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 1194230)
The Delta TA has the scoped out 50 seat flying going away and a significant amount of DCI block hours being shifted back to mainline for the 717 to fly. Combination of the 88 717s and 737-900s will add over 1200 jobs back to mainline with a 20% pay raise, industry leading DC plan, and back to the table in 2015, a year the UNICAL pilots will probably still be in negotiations looking for pennies in the dirt by trying to fly 70 jets etc. The Delta TA makes significant improvements to scope.
Like the original poster stated, its time to start realistically managing expectations, thinking long term, and understanding the time value of money earned now, rather than 10 years from now. Good luck fellas |
Originally Posted by Slammer
(Post 1194268)
Wow. You can't be serous! If you are a regional guy, then you are doomed and quite frankly don't get it! Every major concession to save the company has used " realistic expectations" memo, but spoken from union traders and management. Over 16 years since UA and CAL has had a new contract. Over two years since the merger, and we do not have a major section completed..nor does any labor group have a contract...and you talk about realistic expectations. It is unrealistic to believe you will have a job or security, long term or consistent pay over time, if you continue to outsource your skills and productivity...no matter the career field
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Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 1194284)
It's not continuing to outsource if a significant portion of an airline's total block hour percentage ratio shift from regional to mainline, and then that ratio's snapshot is taken, and PROTECTED by contract. You can't win scope back if you don't under stand scope in the first place........
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Originally Posted by cal73
(Post 1194103)
It is beyond me how or why any ual pilot would consider scope concessions. Self -defeatists are self defeating.:mad:
Totally agree! Last time scope was given away, it has been self critiquing for the entire pilot group: Furloughs and back wards seat movements. Hopefully we have learned something.... |
Originally Posted by Slammer
(Post 1194335)
As a CAL guy, I think we understand SCOPE and block hour ratios. Our SCOPE before the merger, was probably one of the strongest in the industry
Allowing a Q400 to do routes formerly flown by 737s is a completely different matter. IOWs, even that strong scope STILL had holes in it that Larry and J-Lo were able to exploit. |
Originally Posted by dvhighdrive88
(Post 1193897)
Old UAL CA made a statement on the thread "Delta TA Overview" that wasn't well received. It was brief but I think what he is trying to say is that market forces are very difficult to overcome regarding the direction this often bizarre and tumultuous industry goes. We are in a great time of change in this industry and the Delta TA (for good or bad) is a watershed moment and a turning point in the future of the major/regional airline industry. Now before everyone gets their pitchforks and nooses out, lets look at whats going on here and think about what is best for our collective future as a soon to be unified pilot group.
Should the UniCal JNC be considering the Delta scope TA? I think most would resoundingly say no, I don't think they have much of a choice and I'm not here to argue for or against what is before the Delta pilots-plenty of threads doings that. But lets look at WHY the Delta TA is what it is and why I believe our pilots groups will have to consider it's implications (especially in negotiations). Folks, our future at UCH comes down to one main factor these days and that is the cost of petroleum. It is has steadily become the driving force behind where our industry is headed and the Delta TA is really a statement about the future effect strategists believe fuel prices will have on this business. Let's look at orders for airplanes. Bulging at the seams for Busses and 737's, hardly noticeable for the 90-130 seat range and a massive order looming for the 76 seaters IF the Delta scope TA prevails across this industry. I'm not arguing for or against, so don't get that idea. So why the tepid 90-130 orders in the US? Because fuel prices are driving the majors to actually reduce their reliance on regional feed over time and direct that flying back to the next gen Busses and 737's that will become huge RJ's with single class high density seating. You run the numbers as fuel goes $150, $200, $250 a barrel and you'll see a strategy. However, there will always be places the big guys have zip interest in going and just like SWA has no interest. In steps the Delta style regional vision (be it jet or prop) as these 50 seaters die slowly in the scrap yard. My point is fuel is by far the greatest factor in our future and it will dictate where we go, what we buy and who flies what. We can beat our chests all day and think that as pilots we are critical to fleet decisions, however we are insignificant to petrol and the effect it has on our careers, the careers of regional pilots, your friend's and families' lifestyle and fortune, the future of the US economy or the destiny of the whole damn planet?! There has been a lot of consistent chatter that the JNC is in a similar position as the Delta guys have now publicly been put in. The decision is to minimize the effect on our careers fuel is going to have as airplanes have to become bigger, more densely packed and required to generate cash flow through a multitude of sources. From all the factors that are aligning in the industry as of late when you put them together it begins to form a picture of a future that is clearly painted through the brush of fuel prices...and because of this negotiations regarding scope are going to center on the need for the 70 seat RJ to fly where a 50 used to go less frequently as majors shift mainline flying back to high density seating narrow bodies. Is this not what the essence of the Delta TA scope section is about? Could it be the very same issue our JNC is grappling with now? Things have a funny way of falling into place suddenly in this business. Things are moving very fast now that this TA is public. Pilots have traditionally been rather lacking in their long term strategic thinking but we need to change that. We have to think farther than to the next contract and look at where the aircraft orders are going and why. Again, I'm not for or against. I just think rather than get preoccupied with things right before our nose, we need to be better long term strategic thinkers for our careers sake. We need to support the JNC and our union as it maybe :p, through a long term strategic, well thought out decision making process. We need to be more rational and less knee jerk with the blowhard forum antics. The reality is people, this industry is moving ahead very quickly and it is picking up speed very suddenly. We're going to miss the train if were scrabbling around the stockyard looking for pennies in the dirt. Fraternally, DV |
@Trip7- you are so blind. Delta scope is not a good deal! EVEN for you! If you cannot see that Delta would be SO happy to let YOU fly their 70-seat jet at child labor wages for the REST of your career you will never get it.
70-seat mainline scope is ABSOLUTELY critical and YOU should want it. Scope says fly the airplane here (at delta,) as many as you want. Why is that important? Because it gives YOU a job! Would you rather stay in the left seat on a 70-seat jet for your career or get to a mainline? With scope....YOU have a job at mainline, with a seniority number, with retirement, and with the prospect of flying something larger than a 70-seat jet this DECADE! 70-seat scope is a farce! Anyone can see 50-seats at mainline is out of the question (cost wise.) 70-seat is not....it does and can work....you just have to be willing to see through the BS the company is saying and fight! 70-seat at mainline or pound sand!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
I'm kinda repeating something from another thread, but can't we get reasonable scope protection from a solid mainline / express block hour ratio? UAL is stopped at 50% in the current contract and that's the only thing that has prevented management from shifting even more flying to express (they're up against the contractual limit). Can we get reasonable scope protection by changing that ratio to something like 25% express block hours max AND limiting airplane size to 70 seats ? Looking for answers, not flames here. What is the consensus for the best way to protect scope?
I've often thought that we could give up "size" scope by getting a contractual clause that Express can't fly anything over 250 nm. That would eliminate the RJ flights from IAD to Austin, COS, etc. There SHOULD NOT be Express flights from IAD to COS direct. |
Originally Posted by Pilotbiffster
(Post 1194494)
I've often thought that we could give up "size" scope by getting a contractual clause that Express can't fly anything over 250 nm. That would eliminate the RJ flights from IAD to Austin, COS, etc. There SHOULD NOT be Express flights from IAD to COS direct.
IAD-COS @1450 NM's roughly.... vs DFW-SFO @1470 NM's roughly.... In their "Northern Hemisphere RJ," SkyWest flys 3 to 4 flights a day (depending on days of the week) DFW-SFO.....THAT's the kinda segment that needs to STOP!! Per the 2012 stats, UAL flys a 70 Seat RJ multiple times a day from the 9th (DFW)---->12th (SFO) Largest City in the Nation? GMAFB.....Just another example as to how SCOPE needs to be brought in check, NOW. |
There are too many conversations about the size, route length and customer satisfaction of the RJs. Leave that stuff to marketing. What counts is who flys them and how much they get paid.
The problem with ALPA has never been RJs it has been the, "we want to fly big jets" syndrome while we thump our chests. RJs and Q400s are airplanes which carry people and or freight and thus deserve professional pilots who get paid a professional rates. Additionally the pilots also deserve the quality training of us "big boys" and adequate rest and time off for their personal lives. This is what "scope" should be about. Now I have said for over twenty years the mentality of who owns airplanes (buy and fly) is ridiculous in today's modern financing world. I would bet United Airlines actually owns very few airplanes and capital leases most of them. So my thoughts have always been United branded airplanes, no matter what size, need to be flown by United pilots who are covered under the United Pilot contract. Scope can be so clean and simple, United provides the pilots who fly the airplanes and let Skywest or whoever take the financial risk of ownership. But we have to keep the big jets in the big pay so it will never happen. Just rambling tonight. |
Let's see....
Who schedules the RJs? United. Who provides the gates? United. Who pays for the fuel? United. Who provides the ticketing and reservation computers? United. Why not take it a step further and have United provide the pilots? Radical thinking will cease, we have a debate to run about whose jet is bigger. |
Originally Posted by Regularguy
(Post 1194636)
There are too many conversations about the size, route length and customer satisfaction of the RJs. Leave that stuff to marketing. What counts is who flys them and how much they get paid.
The marketing department wants their pilots to be available for work in the same manner as a migrant farm worker picking strawberries in california. Once the harvest is picked marketing will "call you up" back up to the A team around Thanksgiving and then at Christmas. The rest of the time they'll have their RJ's flying it. Pilots now are nothing more than migrant farm workers with wings. It must stop. |
Originally Posted by ewr756drive
(Post 1194490)
@Trip7- you are so blind. Delta scope is not a good deal! EVEN for you! If you cannot see that Delta would be SO happy to let YOU fly their 70-seat jet at child labor wages for the REST of your career you will never get it.
70-seat mainline scope is ABSOLUTELY critical and YOU should want it. Scope says fly the airplane here (at delta,) as many as you want. Why is that important? Because it gives YOU a job! Would you rather stay in the left seat on a 70-seat jet for your career or get to a mainline? With scope....YOU have a job at mainline, with a seniority number, with retirement, and with the prospect of flying something larger than a 70-seat jet this DECADE! 70-seat scope is a farce! Anyone can see 50-seats at mainline is out of the question (cost wise.) 70-seat is not....it does and can work....you just have to be willing to see through the BS the company is saying and fight! 70-seat at mainline or pound sand!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 70-seat or pound sand? They indeed will pound sand and continue to let you fly under a bankruptcy contract while Delta pilots enjoy upgrades, movement, and 50% better pay and benefits than UniCal pilots all because you want the all or nothing home run on scope. Eventually you will tire of pounding your fist on the table and agree to a reasonable scope deal. But the money you could have made had you been reasonable earlier, you will never get back. Time value of money, this is something management understands, and pilots do to. And you wonder why they keep winning Once again, good luck fellas |
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 1194917)
No, you are so blind by emotional reaction from scope you keep stepping over dollars searching for pennies. The Delta TA news dropped regional airline stock prices. Why? Because they will have much less business in the future. DCI currently flies about 40% of Delta's total block hours. That stands to drop to around 25% and contractually protected. If mainline flying decreases so will regional. Delta is protected to add over 800 pilot jobs to mainline because of the 717 deal. Add in the upcoming retirements, there will be plenty of movement to mainline.
70-seat or pound sand? They indeed will pound sand and continue to let you fly under a bankruptcy contract while Delta pilots enjoy upgrades, movement, and 50% better pay and benefits than UniCal pilots all because you want the all or nothing home run on scope. Eventually you will tire of pounding your fist on the table and agree to a reasonable scope deal. But the money you could have made had you been reasonable earlier, you will never get back. Time value of money, this is something management understands, and pilots do to. And you wonder why they keep winning Once again, good luck fellas |
Otto:
"No, the real problem is marketing runs the airline day to day, week to week, month to month, and year to year." Actually the "real" problem is many pilots think they run the airline. I fly airplanes for hire. Marketing plans where the best routes (yes they have a lot of failures and probably more failures than successes) and attempts to get ticket prices which will make money. RJs are just another airplane flown by pilots. Scope is an emotional issue and rightly so. You at CAL have been largely isolated from the issue because of the former size of the airline really didn't prompt MGT to use RJs, but now things have changed. In the long run the only issue is who flys, how much they get paid and what kind of life will pilots who fly airplanes, small to big, enjoy. An RJ is not the devil. The devil is in the details of who flys them. |
Originally Posted by block30
(Post 1194949)
I thought that the DL 717 deal didn't add pilot jobs....pilot wise, a net neutral a/c acquisition. ???
Definitely not a net neutral deal, ALPA is projecting 800+ pilot jobs added to mainline because of this deal. A senior FO is looking at an upgrade pay raise plus an additional 20% pay raise after that raise, a much higher ratio of mainline to DCI flying that is contractually protected, and back to the table in 2015. Delay all that trying to hit the home run and "take it all back" on scope? Unwise. |
Originally Posted by SoCalGuy
(Post 1194623)
Your think the IAD to the "Springs" is egregious??? Look at the following.....
IAD-COS @1450 NM's roughly.... vs DFW-SFO @1470 NM's roughly.... In their "Northern Hemisphere RJ," SkyWest flys 3 to 4 flights a day (depending on days of the week) DFW-SFO.....THAT's the kinda segment that needs to STOP!! Per the 2012 stats, UAL flys a 70 Seat RJ multiple times a day from the 9th (DFW)---->12th (SFO) Largest City in the Nation? GMAFB.....Just another example as to how SCOPE needs to be brought in check, NOW. COS is a small city. It's a long thin route to IAD that is effective on a CR7 currently but not on a A319. Maybe if United stimulates the market enough demand will bump up to a A319 or A320. SFO to DFW is an A319 at peak times during the day, and CR7 during off peak. Please just fly the plane and let the corporate folks worry about marketing.... |
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 1194999)
Great Scott! You guys sound like 172 private pilots telling seasoned 747 Captains how to land the 747 in a strong Xwind!
COS is a small city. It's a long thin route to IAD that is effective on a CR7 currently but not on a A319. Maybe if United stimulates the market enough demand will bump up to a A319 or A320. SFO to DFW is an A319 at peak times during the day, and CR7 during off peak. Please just fly the plane and let the corporate folks worry about marketing.... |
jdt30:
"We have been screwed over for years, we have learned the lesson of giving management an inch and management taking a mile. " So what lesson have you learned? I have learned RJs are here to stay and Trip7 (an RJ pilot) is correct about marketing. Read my past post here the issue is who will represent who flies the airplanes. In the past this wasn't so. My fellow pilots back in the day gave up the RJs for bolstering the "Big Jet" pay and it sounds like many today are still more interested in max pay over supporting the little jets. The fact is the small jets fill a space in this business and the past sold their birth right for a bowl of soup. |
"Please just fly the plane and let the corporate folks worry about marketing...."
Which will lead to more furloughs as "the corporate folks" pawn off the flying to the lowest bidder. |
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 1194999)
Great Scott! You guys sound like 172 private pilots telling seasoned 747 Captains how to land the 747 in a strong Xwind!
COS is a small city. It's a long thin route to IAD that is effective on a CR7 currently but not on a A319. Maybe if United stimulates the market enough demand will bump up to a A319 or A320. SFO to DFW is an A319 at peak times during the day, and CR7 during off peak. Please just fly the plane and let the corporate folks worry about marketing.... The 5:45a departure on the above mentioned route is an Airbus. The other three "RJ"(s) departures leave at 1:30p-ish, 3:30p-ish, and 6:30p-ish. I buy the 1:30p as an "off time", but with the DFW-SFO city pairing specifically, having the Int'l feed out of SFO in the PM, I sure as heck don't buy your reasoning that the last two RJ's above are "off peak times". The above is just ONE specific example of UA's over use of the "wrong a/c" on specific stagings. It's NO secret, L-UA's SCOPE provisions allow this, and Marketing will exploit every/last ounce of the issue to "do it on the cheap" to the "lowest bidder".....Right or WRONG. As far as the mantra you preach, "Leave it to Marketing"....WOW!! If you have not learned by now that leaving it to Marketing costs Mainline jobs, your nuts. Just b/c Marketing 'can' do it, is it always the 'best' model?? I guess with you being on the 'receiving end' of that mantra, it's just fine to let Marketing run amuck?? If WE, Mainline Pilots, sit back and "leave it to Marketing", we've seen exactly where that's gone....The slow train to "jobs go bye-bye". To be clear, that is NOT only germane to the outsourcing of flying via "RJs", it's also going to be in the arena of JV/Foreign Flying as well....Something that BOTH L-CAL/L-UA are very aware of. Don't buy it. |
Originally Posted by Regularguy
(Post 1195049)
jdt30:
"We have been screwed over for years, we have learned the lesson of giving management an inch and management taking a mile. " So what lesson have you learned? I have learned RJs are here to stay and Trip7 (an RJ pilot) is correct about marketing. Read my past post here the issue is who will represent who flies the airplanes. In the past this wasn't so. My fellow pilots back in the day gave up the RJs for bolstering the "Big Jet" pay and it sounds like many today are still more interested in max pay over supporting the little jets. The fact is the small jets fill a space in this business and the past sold their birth right for a bowl of soup. |
Originally Posted by jdt30
(Post 1195009)
So if corporate should worry about marketing, why are you here worrying about "our" feelings about scope? We as United pilots have the right to be as angry and irrational about scope as we want to be. We have been screwed over for years, we have learned the lesson of giving management an inch and management taking a mile.
At the end of the day, the Delta TA has scope that is far superior to UNICAL's agreements. |
Originally Posted by jdt30
(Post 1195069)
I should have been more clear. I want all flying to be done by UAL pilots regardless of the size of the jet.
Jeff, Pete, Fred et al. |
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