And we forget that CAL operates 737's, even classics. If UAL had announced that they were parking the airbus fleet then that might make sense but USair has a nice new fleet of airbuses thus UAL, in their proposed merger with USair would not want to park the compatible fleet.

BTW, I pulled that out of my rear just like someone who claims the UAL 737's were parked to facilitate a CAL merger did years ago. The difference is this, many UAL furloughed pilots and pilots forced to downgrade as a result of that fleet being parked have hung on to those words and dearly want to believe that to be the truth. CAL has had new airplanes on order for years. Most of the 2005 hires held captain in late 2007-2008 and 2006 and on hires were moving up quickly with upgrades expected in 5 years or less. The retirement age change added five years to that and "voila", here we are. The movement due to aircraft deliveries and age related retirements are starting to finally drive system bids with numbers like we saw yesterday. A vast anti-UAL pilot conspiracy this is not. Sorry.

If UAL had had 787's on firm order and new A320's in the delivery pipeline and those aircraft were arriving now and the growth was on your side, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It is what it is. Let's get a contract and the SLI completed so we can all enjoy the growth!!!

True. I remember being on the line in May of 2008 and hearing the uproar over that prospective merger.

I still believe though that CAL management and Tilton and Co. did not simply stop communicating, and make decisions without a strategic plan in place. Whether it was Plan A, B or C only they will ever know.

We can agree to disagree :)

And you forgot the part that required UAL to go through the merger discussion motions with USAir as part of the domestic Star agreement.

It's good thing that CAL was ready and able to step up for the "virtual merger" just mere days after the USAir announcement and the announcement of the aircraft groundings. So quick, in fact, that it almost seems like it had been in the oven for a while....hmm......

I never liked Tilton but I never doubted that he had a plan.

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/...ontinental.jpg

Yep. A Joint venture. The guy on the right wanted no part of a complete merger and left the airline when some on the board started talking about supporting a full blown merger.

Like all you L-UAL guys, I wish this thing hadn't happened. I'd be happy flying the 787 from the right seat or the 737 from the left seat right about now and I believe we would have had our contract settled a year ago had we not been forced to start over so we could do a JCBA as a result of this merger. You guys could have enjoyed all your widebody aircraft and your great route network along with an orderbook for new aircraft that I am sure your airline would have made absent the Continental merger.

None of that took place. We are where we are and arguing our differences of opinion on a message board only serves to point out where we differ at a time when we should be coming together to support our joint negotiators as they compel the NMB to get this thing done ASAP. This stupid bid we are arguing about will not be completely staffed before the SLI could be done should we get a TA we can vote in and start the 180 day SLI process. Before next Summer this 12 month lookout we call system bid 0813 could very well place guys who were forced to downgrade at L-UAL back in the left seat of the A320 or the B737 in bases that are either familiar to them or a base closer to their residence.

Let's keep our eye on the ball.

Didn't CAL have vacancies from last bid? 160 or so?
Now they have 451. How does that work then-how many do they have total now?

They aren't cumulative.

They usually don't fill all of the vacancies before the next bid comes out. You won't see all 202 CA vacancies filled before the next system bid is published sometime in the1st quarter 2013.

IAH,

So we are getting rid of 150 + 757's and replacing them with 100 737's. I think those are the right numbers please correct me if they aren't. But in any case we are getting rid of more than we are replacing so that is growth in your book? Interesting.

First off, you are quoting someone else as that doesn't sound like anything I have said. Please provide the full quote so we can attribute that comment to the correct person.

Secondly, United doesn't even have 150 757's in their fleet. Our combined fleet only comprises 138 757-200 series jets and of those, 41 are new, Rolls Royce powered, ETOPS and winglet equiped Continental jets with 2 cockpit jumpseats so YES, I am correcting you here. I am pretty confident that around 85-90 UAL 757's are targeted for replacement over the next five years with the remaining ETOPS 757's (8 or so?) staying around for a good while. Remember I said this as the first bid post SLI will have a separate category for these aircraft as they will be flown on domestic routes and Mexico/Central America by separate category of pilots that will not be trained on the 767-400. If domestic 757 is someone's thing, it will be a perfect gig that comes with displacement rights when he/she is surplused off the equipment as the airframes are retired. I do not believe the 767-400 will be fenced at all so what I am saying here is that I believe the 757's slated for retirement will be a separate category, available for bid by anyone who can hold it post SLI, just like the 756 catagory which will contain all the other aircraft(757-300, 767-300, 767-400).

Again, the quote above does not sound like me. I am not trying to be argumentative. Have a great Labor Day Weekend!

Hoss...this 757 guy is not worth getting worked up about. He's obsessed with where he'll fall on the SLI...and as many UAL guys as he can step over.

We'll have our day before the arbitration panel.

Agree 100% here. Take the recent Skywest/XJT/ASA meeting where they discussed merging their pilot groups. Jeff earned his wings under Bethune and probably took note of an all Boeing fleet along with only having to deal with a single feed carrier for many of CALs best years.

We had a system CP mention parking all the Airbus by 2020. In addition there are various manufacturers (Bombardier, Mitsubishi, etc.) investing lots of capital into churning out 100 seat RJs (Skywest just happened too place a large order for 100).

I must tip my cap too our brothers at AMR on this labor day weekend, it's refreshing to see labor surprise management and disrupt their plans for a while.

Happy Labor Day

...........................

So what you are really saying is that you don't have any facts to discredit what IAHB756 is saying or support what Airhoss is saying.

The SLI will be done in arbitration. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

IAH,

Sorry I that was not you, my apologies. And I was counting our combined 757/767 fleet we have 96 757's.

EWR73FO the question goes to you. How is a one for one replacement on lower paying airframe growth in your book? The 737 order for UAL is NOT a growth order it's a replacement order.

No worries at all. We all get things wrong on these forums from time to time. Fact: I actually took a half hour looking up the current 757 fleet count for our combined airline etc. as the only info I had was 2 years old. Just how stupid am I? Has either carrier taken delivery of 757's lately? Duh! I cannot wait to get this damn SLI done so you and I and everyone else who is currently arguing and bashing each other can finally take a step back, and realize that we are working for the same airline and towards the same goals and we might even share a cockpit in some form or fashion one day. I look forward to that no matter what seat I am in.

IAH

I will make one point here. The 737-800/900 at CAL pays more than the 757/767 at UAL today by about $10 bucks an hour. Not that I think this will carry forward into the new contract, it is today a fact. The numbers I have seen for the new contract leave the 757-200 at about the same pay rate as the 737-800/900 which ****es me off. That will be a no vote from me. Our 757-200's fly all night high yield trips across the Atlantic with pilots who are always fatigued while the 737 flies a lot of daytime trips that are fairly simple on the time clock. I will fight this to the end with those whom lend me an ear that have a say on either side of this debate...

I have to disagree with you here IAHB756. Maybe, pre-merger but not now. If you look at open time trips on the 73 you will see a lot more red-eyes than pre-merger. After the merger the swap-a-roo of flying added more red-eyes to the LCAL side due to differences in LUAL's and LCAL's work rules in their respective CBAs.

Second that! As a L-UAL guy flying on the CAL side....I can assure you that the 73 flying is a TON OF RED EYE's.

And how. UAL contract requires 16 hours of no duty before a redeye while there is nothing in the CAL contract therefore rest before a redeye is FAR mins. As a result, CAL flies first day in the morning, redeyes later that same day, lands early on second day. To do the same trip UAL has to fly on day one, rest on day two, and redeye late on day two into a third day. They gained a one-third efficiency in pilots doing redeyes simply by shifting redeyes to CAL. Hopefully this will go away under the new contract.

I thought the 737 had some new agreement where schedules would not be built with double duty periods in a single calender day. The 756 domestic still has a few trips with early morning flights West for 9 hours at the hotel then redeye to East Coast(IAD/EWR) for normal rest then back at it.

Not Quite. The agreement keeps PBS from building a line with one trip ending early then another starting later in the day. Within a pairing, this practice is alive and well.

Also, this applies to line construction only, so reserves are being abused just as they always have.

Yes, let's demand that the 737 pay less than the 757! This will make us all so proud after the majority of 757s are scrapped in favor of the 737.

As for 737 pilots not being fatigued, are you serious? I routinely fly six time zone trips and trips that flips morning for night/red eye flying. What you should be demanding is a back-side of he clock override for ALL fleet types.

By the way, don't be surprised when the 737max starts flying to Europe. I'm not saying I like it, just that it's in play in the coming years.

It continues to amaze me how short sighted pilots can be.

You are right. This was a small victory for the Fatigue Review Committee. Unfortunately, it was a very narrow agreement with the company, based on the data they had accumulated from reported fatigue events.

I think you need to step back from the computer and stop being so sensitive. Nobody is attacking your 737 or asking to have the hourly rates lowered on it. What I was trying to say before the small airplane paranoia set in was that the 757-200 was separated from the 757-300 in terms of pay yet the 757-200 flies the Atlantic bringing in premium revenue for the company with pilots who start every trip on the back side of the clock. My guess is that the union thinks that a 6 buck CA and 4 buck FO override will be good enough to pacify the pilot group. I know the 737 is doing redye flying these days. Only the 737 got the new carve out in by the pairing construction committee. I wonder why the 757 was not included in that? My guess is that is was political as many 756 bidders actually bid for double duty periods to maximize days off and reduce commutes. It is the reserves that cannot plan for a double duty period and it is the reserves, regardless of the fleet who pay the fatigue price.

Please don't think I'm so short sided that I would want to lower the rates on a piece of equipment in our fleet. That being said, I hope the day never comes when they actually attempt to fly the 737's to Europe. 757's to the U.K are perfect. I thought one of the great things this merger brought was the almighty 767-300 which can replace our long haul European 757's freeing them up for some South America routes where our 737's are leaving cargo behind on. I doubt we will put ourselves in a fleet situation where the 737 will be tasked with transatlantic trips running the APU for several hours. Look at the West Coast to Hawaii market. The 737's are not doing as much of that flying as the 757-300 have been put on most of those runs along with the UAL 757-200's and 767's (both the -300 and -400). That is the best example of fleet optimization I have seen to date post merger announcement.

you guys parked the 73s cause your scope sucks and most of your domestic flying is done by regional airlines. Wishful thinking on your part that it was for a cal merger...and no, you don't get anything for that in a merger. Thanks for the laugh tho

Scope sucked since 2003...Guppys flew until 2008 around the same time Jeff's predecessor refused to continue merger discussions. I don't much care if you laugh...as long as the mediators keep taking it seriously.

Interesting. UAL has 17 ETOPS 757s flying right now. We also have 13 Premium Service (currently 110 seats in 3-class config) non ETOPS birds that are getting expensive makeovers, so I don't know which one's we'll keep.

Sled

If you really beleive that you are either too lazy to look into UAL's history, you have your head in the sand, or you are seriously mentally challenged.

Larry broke off talks with United cause he saw how unhealthy (financially)that airline was. Its not only my view but of fellow pilots at various majors that United was not going to be around for much longer. I am sick and tires of multiple united guys feeling entitled to what me!-me!-me! should get because of various reasons like "well, we parked those jets just to merge with you guys", "we saved you guys", "we are United". United would be dead without any merger its time to admit that.

United would be dead...that's what I heard in 2003. What was it..."United is HIV positive". Nice tidbit from Bethune. Well, we're still here. CAL is gone. Most of us are as unhappy as you about the merger, especially with CAL. 9 hrs between reserve assignments? coach seats for rest facilities? What a joke. We once shut down ORD-HNL for 2 years because the company would not provide an adequate rest facility. They were offering a first class seat. COACH SEATS? You guys are the Mesa of the majors. XJT has better work rules. Yeah, I feel entitled. Give it a rest.

And yet when the formal meger occurred in 2010 UAL a better balance sheet than CAL. It turns out the collective financial analysis groupthink of fellow pilots was worth jack. Admit that.

As a bonus, which CEO (CAL or UAL) testified in front if Congress that their company would not survive without the merger?

(Hint: It reminds me of that story about the guy in the glass house.) ;)

...and now back to the originally scheduled program....after multiple pages of children attacking each other....

When is the first snapshot being released?

Tomorrow. IF our "IT company with wings" can get it out on time. ;)

I'm going for the left seat again. I had to give it up to merge with UAL.

Sorry to disappoint... :D

Enemy is management. Not the other pilot group. SLI WILL BE GOING TO ARBITRATION so what are you going to prove on an anonymous message board? Relax! Who are the people who want you to relax SCOPE, give you a "bonus" check instead of full retro, give you crappy work rules, pay you less, and want you to retire in the poor house?
Jeez!!!
Direct your anger in the right direction! Aim at that homo Jeff and his minions! They get EXTREMLY excited when we fight amongst our selfs.
F'n FOCUS

cal73, i heard the same thing about cal for my first 5 years here, I guess you just never know who will last and who won't.

Just a couple of questions while these M&A experts verbally chest thump:

1. Who came up with the snap shot date....May 2, 2010...I believe.

2. Can that date be changed?

3. If it can be changed, by whom? Arbitrators, MEC resolution?

;)

Considering that the SLI processes has not even formally started, is there even a snapshot date?

United going out of business was a large part of AA's post 9/11 business plan. They were wrong and so you and your various fellow pilots were too. We made huge sacrifices that saved UAL and pre-merger had several billion cash in the bank and was the #1 on-time airline for 2 years straight. You were wrong and look what a bang up job your sCAL execs (touted for several years by ya'll as the best) are doing these days. CAL reservation systems...crap, CAL management...crap. No junior sUAL active or furloughed pilot I know feels entitled...we just want a fair non-staple job integration. "Laugh" or be "sick and tires" whatever it is today, but the only thing I'm glad about is that this will be handled in arbitration and not by you!

Back to this BS are we?

Who cares who was better than who, we are chained to an anchor right now, (see Smisek and the crappy airline that we work for), TOGETHER and the more sh!t slinging we do amongst each other, the less effective we'll be against the real enemy.

Save it for that lame-ass team that's hunkered down on Whacker Ave guys.