Stalled AIP?
 

United pilots say contract talks stalled
United Airlines pilots say negotiations to finalize Aug. 3 deal have stalled

By Joshua Free, AP



Pilots at United Airlines are saying that talks have stalled again, just weeks after the union and the airline said they had the beginnings of a deal.
United Continental Holdings Inc. has been negotiating for a joint union contract to cover pilots who came from United and Continental in their 2010 merger. On Aug. 3 they said they had agreed to the outlines of a deal, including pay raises and better job protections and benefits, although they still needed to work out the details.
Jay Heppner, the leader of the United pilots, complained in a Wednesday letter to the National Mediation Board that United management has been "injecting terms into previously agreed-to provisions making them now unacceptable." The letter was to NMB member Linda Puchala, who was running the talks.
His letter also repeated a request to offer arbitration, which is one step on the long road toward getting government permission for a strike, and is often the point at which airline labor deals get done. One step for getting that arbitration offer "should include bad faith bargaining. We certainly seem to be at that point," the letter said.
Puchala declined to comment on the letter. The airline issued a statement saying, "We disagree with the inaccurate characterization by Captain Heppner." It declined to comment further because, it said, the National Mediation Board has asked both sides not to talk to the media about the negotiations.
A negotiations update from the airline dated Tuesday said "issues have surfaced" while the language for the agreement was being drafted, but said the company and the union "are dealing with them expeditiously and are jointly focused on concluding this phase of the process."
@yahoofinance on Twitter, become a fan on Facebook

Stalled on time performance goals?

I was on time one time this summer. But hey, I did MY job. No more, no less. Wake Up UCH!!! FUPM!!!

why ask why? why turn off the apu? why call for a guideman? why call for a fueler? WHY?

Bingo! We were not trained by UCH to take such actions as these. Not in my our description. :D

Why call for numbers? Why call MX for left over open write-ups? Why call for a jetway driver? Why make the second call to ops for catering issues? Why carry open mx issues? ................

Why?
 

Why make the first call for catering? NOT YOUR JOB! I call for NOTHING. I waited 45 minutes for numbers once.

Xactly! "hey Captain, you got everything?"
"nope. we need catering, and about 40 Thousand pounds of gas"
"but..but...it's dept. time!"
"yep"

Because it is a go home leg

Because you're adult professionals...although a very difficult, theoretical concept for some.

Ah yes, the "Attny". If you expect motivated pilots like you find at places like Southwest and Fedex then take a look at the Southwest and Fedex profile pages on this website. Compare them with United's and you will see what it takes to achieve such motivation. As far as "adult professionals" go? December 1978! That's the last time one my airline's pilots made a fatal mistake. That is second to none amongst our industry peers and damn impressive when you consider that we were the largest airline in the free world for many of those years since. In the meantime, how about you do your job and we'll do ours? No more, no less.:D

Why call and fix seat dupes yourself? We are busy up there taking care of pre flight safety issues. Have the AGENT who messed up come down and fix it. If i mess up an approach the agent does not do the go around for me. Dont perform ANY maintenance on the aircraft. Light bulbs might be easily replaced but maintenance are the trained professionals for that.

So, Counselor, let's say,hypothetically, you were up for a Partnership and the committee decided that since you were doing a great job and knowing that you couldn't transfer your skills and experience to another firm, they decided against such an offer. Why should they? They are getting what they want from you at less cost and you really don't have much recourse.

Now, aware of the ongoing cases in your firm, you see one of these Partners (who decided against your Partnership) missing a key concept, prior case law or what have you. You tell me how motivated YOU would be to enlighten him/her of their shortcoming? Of course, as the failings of a Partner certainly would help your case for a full Partnership, your professionalism would come through to save his/her day.

I rest my case.

UAL MEC UPDATE Saturday Sept 1, 2012

We continued our work in transforming the AIP into contractual language. Most of our time this week was spent focusing on Hours of Service, Scheduling, Instructor/Evaluators, Crew Rest Facilities and Training. The attached chart reflects where we are in the process. Although you will not notice many changes in the chart, do not misinterpret that to mean that no work is being done on your behalf. The language drafting process is laborious and involves more than someone sitting in their office writing what they believe is the agreement. It requires reviewing the issues, organizing them in a logical fashion, preparing an outline, writing an initial draft, reviewing it, revising it, editing, checking references, and then discussing the draft with others and subject matter experts (who make changes). In addition to the language writing process, we continue to work with management on clarifying issues as they arise and resolving those few items that have not been finalized. We are working as expeditiously as possible but want to be careful to make sure the JCBA is as comprehensive as possible. We realize that this part of the negotiating process is often the most frustrating, so we ask for your continued patience as it is likely to take some time. We cannot give you a precise estimate of the time needed for completing the language, because there are simply too many variables; however, rest assured that we are doing all that we can to get you a complete agreement as soon as possible.

As mentioned in Strategic Planning and Strike Committee Chairman Captain Pieter Velzeboer's message on Thursday, United pilots were planning a picketing event at the White House on Tuesday. In light of the NMB’s request for a meeting between ALPA and management on Wednesday, the UAL MEC will withhold picketing until after this meeting. Following that meeting, the SPSC will meet with Captain Heppner and make a decision based on the trend of that meeting. This suspension until at least Thursday will also allow us more time to coordinate with the CAL SPSC. These JCBA negotiations are very dynamic, and SPSC will remain nimble and effective, operating wherever and whenever needed.
Who: United Airlines pilots
What: Informational Picketing
When Thursday, September 6, 2012, 11:30 a.m. to 2 p.m., Eastern
Where: White House (North side), 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, D.C.
Pilots will gather in Lafayette Park across from the White House prior to the 11:30 a.m. picketing.

Rumor: The term "agreement in principle" (AIP) used by ALPA and UAL was unexpected, incorrect, and used only to take pressure off the union and the company while we should have been fighting for a tentative agreement (TA).

Rumor: The "gag order" directed by the NMB has no teeth and is being used to hide something from our representatives and the rank-and-file line pilots.

The Facts: The use of Agreement-in-Principle (AIP) is not different and certainly not new. Agreements in principle are done all the time in business dealings – on cocktail napkins at a dinner meeting, for instance. The merger of United and Continental Airlines was based on an AIP between the CEOs – who was going to be Chairman and President, where the headquarters was going to be located, who was going to be on the Board, how was it to be paid for, etc. The rest of the details were ironed out later by attorneys and other experts. AIPs outline the major framework of a deal, and the details eventually work themselves out. Did Delta and Southwest have one? Yes – as recently as May 22, Delta announced “To this end, Delta has reached an agreement in principle with Southwest Airlines and Boeing to lease 88 Boeing 717 aircraft.” A legal description of AIP can be seen at this and other websites.

The reason the phrase “Agreement in Principle” has elicited an emotional response here is because in the attempt to keep the pilots up to date with as much detail as possible during the negotiations, the term was used appropriately to accurately describe where we were in the negotiating process. The alternative would have been to say nothing throughout the entire negotiations, as is usually the case in major negotiations, until there was an actual Tentative Agreement available for review and consideration.

The following was the message announced by the two MEC Chairmen on August 2.

Today, ALPA reached agreements in principle (AIPs) with United Continental Holdings, Inc. management on all major economic and scope provisions of the joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), after two years of bargaining and with the assistance of the National Mediation Board (NMB). Work remains on some non-economic issues that will continue in the days ahead, but the JNC is confident that, with the continued support of the NMB, we can reach satisfactory agreement on those as well.

Here also, many people interpreted this message to say the contract was done. Reading what was said then and comparing it to where we currently are should put everything back into perspective.

Additionally, our JCBA negotiations represent the first time this particular NMB process and protocol have been applied during joint merger negotiations. ALPA has called these the most complex negotiations in ALPA history. The NMB has taken a very conservative approach to this process. They recognize, as do we, that a deal is not a deal until ALL elements have been agreed to. So as to not risk the AIPs (of which there are currently 20 in the JCBA) which capture all of the major economic items, the NMB has issued a gag order to help protect the work accomplished thus far. JCBA negotiations are meant to be negotiated between Negotiating Committees and not among 12,000 negotiators. This is why we do not and have not negotiated in public. The gag order is a reinforcement of that.

This gag order is not a judicially ordered mandate nor is it punishable in court. It is a request of the NMB who continues to be responsible for our JCBA until it is ratified. We require their assistance to bring this to a Tentative Agreement for our MECs and Pilots to consider. Whether it is to seek a release, force the parties to the table, establish parameters for negotiations, or whatever, not following their requests would have consequences. Remember, the NMB put APA (American Pilots) on ice for years. Violating the gag order may satisfy pilots’ curiosity about what has been agreed to so far, but at great risk to achieving a complete Tentative Agreement. Remember, it is not a deal until it is a deal. A gag order is nothing nefarious – it is about not negotiating in public. We will respect it.

It is clear that the infrastructure for the IPAD is not yet in place and this has been an ongoing discussion with the company. We had been expecting the company to make an announcement on this postponement and did not want to wait any longer.

Consternation on the line over the IPAD is reaching a frustration point. The only official announcement about the postponement of the requirement to carry, so far, will come in the Sept. 14, 2012 revision summary. We have been assured the required-to-carry date will not be September 14. When the company IT department actually establishes dedicated WiFi bandwidth in our domiciles to support normal operation of the device, they will notify the pilot group via POSBD on when the new required-to-carry date will be. We do not anticipate that in the near future.

What we do anticipate is the company using time after the requirement-to-carry as a validation period. They are working on a timeline for “validation to implementation” and how that would look, as well as a schedule as to how we reduce paper (hard copies of manuals) on the airplane. We also anticipate a better education process to the pilots on the reduction of paper and how long hard copies will remain on the airplane.

On Thursday, the UAL MEC grievance committee filed a group grievance on behalf of all Councils. In this Section 1 grievance, the company is charged with violating Letter of Agreement 94-01 and Section 1 of the United Pilots' Collective Bargaining Agreement by solely operating flights with the IATA code UA, the ICAO code UAL and the Ticket/Account code 016 with pilots who are not on the United Pilots' System Seniority List (the "United Pilots").

Additionally, the MEC Grievance Committee has initiated the Transition and Process Agreement Section 12 dispute process regarding the company’s violation of TPA Section 4D. In accordance with Section 4D of the Transition and Process Agreement and as modified by the Transition and Process Extension, neither Continental nor United will create or operate a new domicile or add a new equipment type to an existing domicile within one hundred fifty (150) miles of the other's existing domicile. The company's decision to operate a Houston B-787 base prior to JCBA effective date is a clear, intentional and unambiguous violation of the Agreement.

The following is from MEC Training Committee Chairman Captain Rich Pellicore.

The ULN network is back up and running. You have until September 20 or 24 hours before a trip that touches this date to complete your Phase 4 training. For those who completed the training before the ULN was taken down, you should have been automatically credited for one hour of pay. Check the PAYREC command in Unimatic to verify. When you do the training the required second time, you will also be automatically credited the one hour pay. For those who completed one module but not the entire ULN course, your pay is being manually put in. This may take some time so keep an eye on your pay records to ensure you receive compensation for your work.

The Training Committee is still getting PDRs from 777 and 756 pilots who are being told they are being removed from a trip because they have not completed their required ASR/GSR training. A previous Update discussed this. Remember that you must complete the ground training during your early, base or grace month. Apparently there is not a diagnostic that appears in your CALREC that tells you are going NQ like you have when you are due, for example, an FAA physical. Check your QUA8 page in Unimatic to ensure you have completed all your required training. The one that seems to get overlooked is Annual Security training. Many pilots have reported difficulty with the ULN doing this on a MAC computer. Check that your computer has the required operating systems. You don’t want to get a call from the crew desk or flight office telling you that you have 24 hours to complete your training or you will be taken off that four-day trip to Europe and you can’t get it done on your MAC. Finally, the Global Contrails ground training for the 777 and 756 is now in the ULN for the fall and this must also be completed.

The following is from Military Affairs Committee Chairman First Officer Dennis Smith.

This is an update to the class action lawsuit that was filed on July 15, 2012, challenging United’s incorrect calculations and payments to Military members' PDAP accounts upon their return from long-term military leaves (31 days or more) since April 2000.

United Airlines and the Plaintiffs recently filed a joint request to stay the litigation for 90 days in Denver federal court. The purpose of this stay request is to enter into settlement talks with the law firms that represent the Plaintiffs -- Cohen Milstein Sellers & Toll PLLC, the Law Office of Thomas G. Jarrard, Witherspoon Kelley, and Robert W. Mitchell.

This request for stay was approved by the court on August 20, 2012. As a result, United has entered discussions to reach a potential settlement to compensate members in the class who received incorrect PDAP contributions. We will continue to monitor any developments in the case and will keep you updated as we learn more.

Anyone that has not spoken to the law firms representing the Plaintiffs and is a potential class member (any United pilot who took 31 days of consecutive military leave or more between 2000 and 2010) should contact the lawyers for further information and instructions. This can be done by checking their website or calling their offices directly.

I have been trying to find in the FOM or whatever they call it now, where it says I have to make sure everyone else at this company is doing their job. The final weights , jet bridge drivers, mechanics, and marshallers will eventually show up. I am a patient person.

UCH brass = liars, thieves, and a lawyer plus a dick named Fred.
FuPM. Theory dont pay the mortgage

Thank you kind sir for the GREAT start to my Sunday.

I refuse to be professional as long as my family and I are getting raped. If UCH drags this out another 5 months, it will be a DECADE of working under a bankruptcy contract. A contract where Captains earn less than some Copilots elsewhere. Sorry counselor, you'll probably miss you're connection on my flight. At least until UCH makes this right.

Sled

You CAL guys are doing that stuff?? Dont let the feds find out that you are changing bulbs and stuff........that aint a pilots job anymore.

J

September 5, 2012
Dear United Pilots:

Today, the CAL MEC Chairman and the JNC Co-Chairs and I met with management and the NMB in Washington DC. With the assistance of the NMB, the parties were able to resolve to conclusion some of the items left open from August 2 and items that had cropped up in language writing. There still remain several more open items to resolve. We have indicated to the NMB that we would not leave Washington while there remained any open items. Further, we requested that the resolved items be more substantive than mere bullet points to assist the JNC in completing contractual language.

The NMB has suggested that the current process with their direct involvement is working and that nothing should be used as a pretext to slow that process down. They have asked us to pull down all public expressions planned for this week. As such, I have made the difficult decision to pull down events at the White House and at the domicile airports for now.

We reserve the right to publicly express our frustration with the process anytime and anywhere. And we will do it legally. But we also do not take actions for the sake of action. We will continue to constantly evaluate if the process is indeed working. We have waited nine years for this contract, and our families are hungry. We have indicated to you before that negotiations are a rollercoaster, and the decision to publicly express ourselves, or not, has a toll on our pilots. We will not do it needlessly or without purpose; but we will do it when it is warranted. The NMB has asked that we allow the process to continue under their supervision. A war is composed of many battles; sometimes you have to choose the right ones.

Please remain engaged. Our JCBA depends on it.

We are United,

Chairman, United Master Executive Council

Holy crap! The NMB does nothing but neuter us. This tentative agreement better be a stellar piece of work. How long does the NMB think is too long? How long does our union reps believe is too long to step it up? It's getting to be our personal Vietnam.
For the last four months, all of the flights that I've done have experienced a variety of delays. Management has f'ed this place up so badly that I doubt that they would even notice a job action. I think I need a cigarette right now even though I don't smoke.

^ Great post...
I've said this for a month+ now.. we could have a JCBA Passed tomorrow with everything we wanted PLUS 10%.. this operation wouldn't be fixed.

At this point, the problems are so far beyond just a pilot JCBA.

I (and most of the pilots I know).. still do our required job. I make the call to maintenance, I make the call to Ops, etc..
With a JCBA, I might make 2 or 3 calls to them.. still isn't going to fix the problem!
Nope, at this point- just along for the ride. I will stay Professional to/for my passengers till the day I retire. I will try and be nice/help out my fellow employees (with the caveat that- you get what you give).

But I don't say that I'm a "United Pilot".. I still say, when asked- "I fly for Continental".
Maybe someday, after a JCBA/SLI & New Management, I'll say "United".. but until then~

Anyway, off my soapbox.

Always
Motch

PS>
Fly Safe, Fly Professional, Fly the AFM/FOM and Fly The Contract!

It is your management, thx for not telling anyone your a united pilot.

Syd111..
You're welcome.

Trust me, I told the UAL guys I know (that were semi glad about this merger.. as they hated Tilton and were hoping this would turn out good..) that I didn't trust Jeffrey and that we better watch out.

What I never expected was that the two Unions couldn't come together and make a battle plan. We should never have signed the TPA extension. We should have had black and white language in the original TPA that if no JCBA by the end, all bets are off and we're shutting the place down.

There's a lot of "should have's''.. but now it's too late.
I hope I'm wrong and we do have a JCBA that we can be proud of before the New Year.. but if not-
I made a statement at my local council meeting back in the Spring, with regards to the Profit Sharing for the Continental Pilots (I was against the way we got it... I stated that on numerous venues, and i never took the money for my own use- it went to a Charity).
I asked what the plan was to get us Profit Sharing in 2013 for 2012 and what we would be negotiating away to get it. Not a popular thing to say~
[BTW, giving up the 76-2's had a major negative effect on the 756 EWR BES this entire summer.. both in Pay and QOL]
Hope we don't go through some BS Grievance give away to get it again, and I hope we don't sign another TPA Extension again.

BTW, UAL/ALPA filled a Grievance against the company last week saying United in in violation of your CBA,

Dear Chief Pilots:
Pursuant to Section 17 of the Agreement between United Airlines Inc. and the Air Line
Pilots Association, the undersigned representing the Pilots of Councils 11, 12, 27, 33, 34,
52, 57 and 93 hereby requests a hearing regarding the facts as described below:
FACTS:
1. Letter of Agreement 94-01 binds UAL Corp and its successor entity United
Continental Holdings, Inc. and all Affiliates to the requirements of Section 1 of the
United Pilots' Collective Bargaining Agreement.
2. Section 1 of the United Pilots' Collective Bargaining Agreement grants the pilots on
the United Pilot Seniority list the sole and exclusive right to operate and perform all
Company flying.
3. Section I-B-l states "Company Flying" includes without limitation all commercial
flight operations of any sort whatsoever, whether revenue, nonrevenue, scheduled
or unscheduled, conducted by the Company or a Company Affiliate.
4. Section l-K-l defines "Affiliate" as "any other Entity which directly or indirectly
controls, is controlled by or is under common control with Entity A.
5. On March 4, 2012, UCH transitioned into a single Passenger Service System
(SHARES) and instituted the sole use of the lATA code UA, the ICAO code UAL,
and the Ticket/Account code 016 for all Company flying.

POSITION:
The Company violated Letter of Agreement 94-01 and Section 1 of the United Pilots'
Collective Bargaining Agreement by solely operating flights with the lATA code UA,
the ICAO code UAL, and the Ticket/Account code 016 with pilots who are not on the
United Pilots' System Seniority List (the "United Pilots").

RELIEF REQUESTED:
1. The Company cease and desist from violating LOA 94-01 and Section 1 of the UAL
Pilots' Collective Bargaining Agreement.
2. The Company return all United Air Lines Affiliate Flying to the pilots on the United
Seniority List.
3. The Company indemnify and make whole the pilots of L-UAL, for all flying done
in violation of the UAL Pilots' Collective Bargaining Agreement, including but not
limited to income, benefits, Profit Sharing, "B" and "C" Plan allocations, and
imputed interest at the statutory interest rate of 9% as required under Chapter 815
of the Illinois Compiled Statutes.
VAL 57 Grievance Committee
Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l
August 30, 2012
Page 3
4. The Company indemnify and make whole all L-UAL pilots for the loss of any
upgrade and transition opportunities due to any Affiliate flying.
5. The Company indemnify and make whole all L-UAL pilots for the loss of any
future upgrade and transition opportunities due to any Affiliate flying.
6. The Company immediately reinstate all 1436L-UAL furloughees, with back pay,
from the date the Company instituted the sole use of the lATA code VA, the ICAO
code UAL, and the Ticket/Account code 016 for all Company flying.
7. Any and all other relief available under the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
It is requested that the Company send a copy of all hearing notices and decisions
rendered in thiS}Se to the individuals listed below:

Hope it does some good..
Believe it or not, I want this merger/airline to succeed. My future is tied in directly. That being said, I have not ran into one Continental Pilot or Flight Attendant that believes that our (CAL) side has gotten better since the merger.
Just the opposite-
More MEL's then ever before, less service with regards to BF passengers, longer lines everywhere, more stress, and an overall feeling that 'we suck'. That was never there before the merger.
[Yes, CAL had major issues before this merger.. and I'm not here to say one airline was better that the other.. both had positives and negatives prior to May 2010]

It is what it is..
Motch

Yes the mel's are special and once again your guys are running the show at that point. It was actually one area I thought we would improve on but hey I have not seen one thing from the management that came with this merger that is doing anything correct.

Wow. This is laughable. Sorry, but this is a perfect time to show management just how much the pilots keep the operation running. Time for management to find out the pilots true worth.

Excellent work by those simply doing nothing more then their job. Maybe management will eventually figure it out.

NMB
 

This NMB is a joke, is this where my dues and PAC money have been going? To a "labor-friendly" organization? Politics first, people second.:(

ALPA better not have the nerve to tell me who to vote for this year.:mad:

Regardless of how good or bad the TA is, if it gets to the pilots it will pass.

If you stop Calling MX, Op's, etc you just might have a new contract.....

Nope.. it's part of my job. I find something wrong on the walk around, I tell the Capt.. he writes it up in the Log Can and I (or he) makes a call to maintenance. That's my job.

I won't (however) keep calling MX every 5 mins. I've done my job, I've called them. Once.
Same with Ops when the FA tells us we are short something.. I make the call.

Then I go back to my required duties...

On the other hand, if I know of a maintenance write up, or of a FA issue.. and don't make my call and the CSR comes to close the door and we say "Not yet, we have an issue"... THEN I can be accused of a 'work action'.
Not gonna do that. Gonna do my job, and do it Professionally. Have to trust that the other departments will do theirs too. Not my job to babysit them~

Motch

Keep doing your job and enjoy being a suck'er....

The best way to get a TA is Rock the boat until everyone get's sick.

Sorry that's the way it works in big boy airline land....

Mvndc10-
How about you tell us who you are and what you fly.. and tell us how "You" do it~ Maybe we can all learn from you.

Tool

Motch

Motch~

From other threads, he's a DAL Pilot (former nwa) who's a proponent in the DPA movement.

Fill in the blanks
SC

Thanks SC..
I've seen his posts somewhere else.. just didn't take the time to research him a few minutes ago when I came in from my run.

What's weird/sad is- I actually support the DPA movement but obviously, they have their share of idiots and tools over there too.

Anyone advocating that you should not do your job, you should not call maintenance when you find write-ups or that you should not call catering when the FA's tell you we are short of bottled water.. must be a real pleasure to fly with.

But no worries. Every group has their 5-10%. I'll just add him to that group.
Funny that a Delta (ex NWA) guy would be commenting on our stalled AIP.

Motch

In 2005 when NWA enacted their crappy BK contract provisions The NWA Pilot group quickly took action and changes were made in a matter of weeks.....

I still remember the CEO at the time on TV, apologizing for the "Summer of Hell" there wasn't any Screwing around, they could fix the contract or shut it down..But the Pilot were not going to put up with that crap......

Caving over and keeping the operation moving will get you no-where...

I guess you could say No Pain No Gain....Just to keep it simple...

Studly,

Thanks for the lesson, but don't lose sight of the fact that we were, and still are under a court ordered injunction. Our balls are in a toothy vise and your coming here and lecturing us on all things union is a bit brassy don't you think?

Congrats on your situation, but its apples and oranges to ours.

Anyone else notice that most of the "Richards" on this forum are DAL guys? What's up with that?

Members of Council 57:


It is reported that our Joint Negotiating Committee has completed the entire list of items that were still open in our negotiations, and that language writing for a full fledged Tentative Agreement will continue. Captain Pierce has also reported that said language writing will take "a few more weeks", but that "it could be done sometime in October."


This is all your officers know at this time.