What am I missing?
 

When the agreement was made between United and Continental that neither side would hire pilots off the street while either side had pilots on furlough without first offering the furloughed guys a new hire spot at the other carrier was made, each company was operating under it's own operating certificate. Now, we still have a botched up merger with two airlines operating under one single certificate and name "United Airlines". How can any ALPA pilot on either side not be appalled that one side is posting huge vacancies and announcing indefinite pilot hiring at 50 or so a month, while the other side has over 1400 ALPA pilots on furlough. You can't tell me that the flying hasn't been shifted around. United used to dominate the west coast to Hawaii flying and now you can hardly find a flight operated by United, they're all Continental! Active pilots on the United side with 13, 14 years seniority sit at the bottom of the list, while pilots much junior on the Continental side are looking at upgrades. I'm sure their seat will be protected once the merger is complete and the seniority list is integrated. This is a mess and it's the United side that is losing out in my book and it's not just the furloughed guys! I don't see how a new contract has anything to do with the current situation. Plus if you're a United furloughee that took the new hire job at Continental you don't even benefit pay wise with the new contract. You're simply a new hire, so you remain at your 5, 6, 7 year old United pay until the new pay scale exceeds your present pay. So until your recalled by your United number or the list is merged their is no benefit. How does a new contract all of a sudden change the fact that the Continental side of United is hiring off the street? Help me out, i'm confused!

You need to look at EWR flying as well. The 756 CAL base has been desimated over the past year. There is almost no 76 flying at all. It has all been replaced by UAL. All 76s will be removed from IAH in the spring replaced with a UAL 76 base. It goes both ways. Just management doing their best to play us against each other.

go speak to someone at the chief pilots office they will be able to break it down better. They have a whole power point presentation about this specify topic. It is very indepth and goes into more detail then is needed. It is about 30 minutes long so its not really a quick watch, bring some popcorn.

I got no particular side in this but really people? Really? What the hell do you think they do when they merge two huge damn airlines? Leave it as it was?

C'mon, get a grip and quit your useless belly achin'. Your zip, zero, zilch, nada of help to your brothers and sisters or the people you work with whining and moaning about what airline management has done and will continue to do forever. It's their job to maximize the potential of the airline and move the pieces around to find those often abused "synergies".

How well they do it is a whole different subject. Many argue Delta is doing a pretty good job these days and AMR definitely not while UCH seems to be, well....there is no shortage of opinion on that and most of it is not positive.

But really, to sit here and moan like a child about what all of us already know and understand is a complete waste of time.

If indeed you are a professional unionized US airline pilot stay focused on supporting your profession and your brothers and sisters through EFFECTIVE professionalism. Our job, our focus is supporting each other, this profession, our families and getting what we justly deserve for executing this unique skill with the ultimate goal to maintain the safest airline industry in the world. What the management upon high does, you will rarely change and complaining endlessly about it won't do much except fill space on a server.

Stay focused people. Stay safe. Stay United. Your tremendous accomplishment as one of only a handful of major US airline pilots can only be taken from you if you choose. If you wish to retreat inside and handover emotional control to others about your future then march on down to headquarters and wave your white flag mightily. Otherwise, this is just a job in the end and there is an end for all of us not that far away.

Go fishin' or something.

JMHO, The shifting of flying is something that seems normal & expected in a merger of this size; although not pleasant for everyone. The dramatic growth and hiring on one side only with utter stagnation on the other is really, really maddening. I'm one of those 14 year "junior" f/o's on reserve.
We are up against some absolute b&*%ards in mgt.

15 year Jr F/O on reserve here.

dvhighdrive88,

First off, who do you work for? Second you've completely and totally missed the point. It's not about shifting stuff around and making changes. It's about one side, L-UAL, being decimated and the other side growing in leaps and bounds.

It about the L-CAL side having growth and movement and the L-UAL side being stuck in perpetual stagnation. Since I was surplussed to the right seat 2.5 years ago I've not moved up one single solitary number in fact I've slid back 3 numbers on my fleet and seat. That is with 15 working on 16 years of seniority.
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thor,

It is not going both ways. You guys have vertical movement. We have a little lateral movement otherwise we are completely and totally stagnant. The recent recall then retraction of that recall notice is a prime example. If we had equipment bids, if we were recalling, if we had ANY movement I would agree with you. However we don't so as it stands right now, L-CAL, is being used to leverage L-UAL and yes the fact that you are hiring off the street and grow while we have furloughs out on the street and are stuck in perpetual stagnation is totally and completely wrong. It causes distrust, it causes hatred and it causes friction. What else could it possibly accomplish when you have a drastic inequity like this?

Just wait until the CAL MEC votes yes and the UAL MEC votes no on the TA, and so they dust off DAL's LOA 19 which allows them to implement the new contract with one group but not the other. That will be messed up.

Hey dvhighdrive88, are you a UAL guy? I hope not because I have met very few UAL guys with that 'rollover' attitude in my 15 years at UAL. It's painfully obvious that our side of the UCH "merger of equals" is being gutted royally. Plain and simple.

As the the message to furloughed United Pilots just sent out today states: Every pilot CAL hires off the street directly affects the number of recalls to the new United. This just shouldn't happen because in the end its one company. Why should a new hire off the street secure a job at what will be the new United, while United pilots hired years ago sit on the street because they didn't take the Continental offer of employment. It's wrong and if some of you guys don't see that, you're blind.

Actually, many of us on the CAL side see the above happening in reverse!

Most of the guys I fly with are of that opinion, tailwheel. They think the UAL MEC and the UAL pilots will accept anything that comes their way due to big pay raises mainly. Since United already allows 70-ish seat small-jets, most guys I fly with are of the opinion UAL pilots have nothing to lose so take the offer and run.

Again, that is THEIR opinion, but I personally feel both pilot groups as a whole know what is at stake regarding scope, pay, work rules, etc. in the entirety. No pilot group has been more affected by outsourcing than the L-UAL pilots. I doubt they'll accept anything put in front of them.

That's speaking from a position of juniority. History has shown though that juniority is adversely impacted by the views of seniority. Hopefully, I'm wrong in this statement this time.

That too. Either way it's going to take us to a new level of a messed up merger.

[QUOTE=Airhoss;1275196]15 year Jr F/O on reserve here.



dvhighdrive88,

First off, who do you work for? Second you've completely and totally missed the point. It's not about shifting stuff around and making changes. It's about one side, L-UAL, being decimated and the other side growing in leaps and bounds.

It about the L-CAL side having growth and movement and the L-UAL side being stuck in perpetual stagnation. Since I was surplussed to the right seat 2.5 years ago I've not moved up one single solitary number in fact I've slid back 3 numbers on my fleet and seat. That is with 15 working on 16 years of seniority.
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I'm sorry as hell about that Hoss. Truly if we were standing face to face I would like to implore upon you how crappy a situation I find this to be. I personally vehemently despise the hardships the 2172 and 1437 have been through. It is gut wrenching to hear the stories over and over and to have lived my own-each a sad and difficult road traveled with a ruined career as a companion.

But there is only one way forward people and that is together. That is a fetid cliche I give you but it is the truth. Another worn out cliche is the truth shall set you free and the truth here is that both groups rolled the dice and we lost. We gambled on United and we turned up snake eyes.

So there it is. How now brown cow? I see as our best chances to let go of this painful time and engage real catharsis as pushing forward with the new agenda of recovery in this profession. As nauseatingly comfortable and seductive as self pity and morbid reflection can be for what has happened, one of the few lights I see ahead in this tunnel is the possibility that through unification we as a combined United pilot group can make great leaps forward in the coming years. I firmly believe tangible gains in our QOL and the value of our profession is possible if handled right by us. I haven't great concern for the trials and tribulation or the difficulties this career will deal us in the future for I also understand the truth that it will come again no matter my level of preparation. The truth is also that the opponents to our gains as a group have as much a passion for their craft as do I. I accept it and expend little energy hand wringing about what their plans may be.

So here we are. The truth is there and it is naked in the open. So how forward? How do we deal with this change to United and yet advance our cause while continuing to provide the safest and most efficient airline industry on the planet? Perhaps some may call that "rolling over" but I find the possibilities of the future far more consoling than the suffocating memories since 9/11.

This is a load of fertilizer. A big pay raise would be Contract 2000 wages adjusted for inflation and COLA. As it now stands, even at DAL rates, we're taking it in the shorts and still have everything to lose. There are a significant number of hyper senior pilots flying the left seat of the bus who could hold the left seat of the 67. IF the buses (and probably a mess of guppies) were parked due to a huge "give" in the scope section those Captains would matriculate to the left seat of 67s. The more junior Bus Captains would head for the right seat of the 67,77 and 400 displacing a HUGE number of senior F/Os. Don't forget that there are roughly 3-4 F/O's per Captain due to the bunkie requirement for long range flights. It would absolutely create havoc for the bottom 70ish percent of the airline (sUAL).

The only guys who want to take the money and run are some among the hyper senior crowd (soon to retire) and a handful of spineless Marvins. More and more of the guys I fly with are getting their axe handles ready.

Things are looking very bleak if you ask me. IF the TA is a turd this place ought to implode. There's your happy thought for the day.

**I'm doing my best to not paint the CAL guys with a broad brush because it's destructive and only furthers El Heffe's cause. So I will highlight when the tables are turned.

So you ARE a UAL guy. Thanks dvhighdrive88.

Thast funny oldmako as I am hearing the opposite. That many of the junior guys are ready to jump at anything to get a raise. I guess I am noy hyper senior but have not heard one guy around my seniority talk about jumping at anything but again have heard some that are junior and maybe need the money talk like this is already ratified and how much they are looking forward to it.

For a United pilot who was hired in 99,2000,2001 etc that is at CAL on their old United pay, there is no raise with a new CBA. You're still a new hire and won't see any benefit pay wise from a new contract until you're technically recalled by United or the seniority list is integrated. Until then you're just a new hire. So lets say a United furloughee is at CAL making $82/hr, they won't see a raise until their second year at 2nd yr FO pay on the new CBA. That is messed up! They are at the new United and getting no longevity credit for the 4, 5, or 6 years they've already worked for Legacy United. This should be addressed and amended by the MEC's. Otherwise, any furloughed United pilot at CAL other than those that were still on first year pay should definitely vote NO on a new CBA no matter what the pay rates. Those furloughed United Pilots on 1st year pay will definitely benefit from the new CBA but that's it. Once again, new hire's at CAL directly affect the recall of United Pilots!!! If I'm wrong correct me...I'd love to be wrong but I don't think I am! Under the current situation, a junior United pilot who hits his 2nd year at CAL with a new CBA let's say making $100/hr will be making more than a United pilot who is senior to him that bypassed and is at their old 6yr A320 pay until year 2 at CAL. Again, completely messed up!!!

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Billy Madison

Not sure what you're saying, but,

"TPA 7.B.(i). Such Pilot will be paid the greater of (1) the actual hourly pay rate he was receiving on the date of his furlough, or (2) the hourly pay rate to which his years of service at the employing Airline otherwise entitles."

And we don't know what the new contract will say on the issue of UAL pilots at CAL yet. It would seem a UAL pilot at CAL would get credit for his time at UAL plus his time at CAL to enter the new pay table at.

I had to re-read it, and figure out a possible scene, but I see what he is saying. In his example, if a UAL pilot takes the job at CAL, s/he will be making $82/hr (previous pay at UAL). Then the CBA comes along, and year 2 pay goes to $100/hr. The UAL pilot has to wait until s/he has been at CAL (the new UAL) two years until seeing that $90/hr unless something is put in the CBA for longevity (Until the ISL comes along)... NO?

Billy Madison makes sense! :D
Time to do a little more homework, datake.

Short Bus,
I do believe you are on the right track, but there should be an ISL 180 days after a JCBA...

"should be"...

Yes, I would say definitely no. The new CBA doesn't have to say anything about UAL+CAL longevity because the UAL new hire already has it now. It doesn't make any sense to then remove his years of service at UAL when a new contract comes out.

mako,

Like I said, it wasn't my personal opinion, just opinion of many of the guys I fly with. I don't see it the way they do as too many have suffered the results of the last 10 years to jump at just anything.

At the check airman meeting we kept hearing that "we're a year behind Delta". To me that translates an offer of Delta pay rates one year in the rears and an extension beyond Delta's new amendable date. Toss in a mere $450M for back pay or signing bonus and I am a solid "NO" vote.

This has far more to do with what the rank and file want this time than what either MEC does. If taking someone else's flying means a windfall however, as has been demonstrated in the past by both groups, "Katie bar the door"!

I hope you're right, but I don't think so. Remember, all furloughed United pilots at CAL are simply new hires getting a new CBA. Their previous longevity at United counts for nothing until recall. However, they did allow United pilots who were still on probation to carry over their previous time to minimize their time at CAL on 1st yr pay. That was a new agreement reached after the fact. Maybe that's a case for the other furloughed United pilots to carry over their longevity onto the new payscale without being recalled.

The second we have a contract and an ISL then they take their rightful spot on the list. Depending on the outcome of the SLI, this may or may not have a big effect on the lists. It will certainly effect the voluntary furloughs.

Scott

Actually not completely true. If there are no vacancies , even if you awarded the # 1 spot in the whole company you can't come back until that point. It will take years after a seniority list to get everyone back who wants to.

I have done my homework and continue to do so. Also, I am directly affected by this. I have over 5 years of active service with United and was told by more than one (Alpa Representative) that I will not receive any pay increase with a new CBA. I will remain at my old non existent 2008 year 6 United pay until officially recalled since I am considered a new employee. The first pay increase would be hitting year 2 FO pay on the new CBA. I can't even access my banked sick time. A new single CBA does not equate to now being recalled. The fact is, it could take a year plus for an Integrated Seniority List and who knows how long for an official recall. In the meantime I am stuck as a new hire at the new United, just a fact.

Good point. Although they will in fact take their respective spots on each list, the final spot in the roster list for each domicile/fleet/seat will be, in fact, determined by vacancies and the final outcome of the SLI WRT fences, etc.... Total mess IMHO. As a DEN 320 guy, I'm sick of the garbage trips/schedules caused by CAL guppies taking 20+ city pairs (mostly west coast, from my reckoning) from the traditional DEN flying that we would prefer stay UAL flying. In the end, (I have 26 years to go) I can only hope that we'll all find a way to make it all work out for the best. Still waiting (as we all are)...

Scott

Your's sounds like a solid argument, unfortunately. First I would expect that the JCBA will stipulate you'll get your UAL on-property longevity back along with whatever is accrued at CAL. As a backup, I would think this could also be part of the SLI, with backpay to the amenable date of the new contract.

CAL's getting more redeyes and 30-hour layovers than we thought possible because of the lack of a 16-hour rest requirement before an ANF and no TAFB pay calculation, as UAL has. It's miserable for the junior lineholders just above the reserves--who are also miserable.

Ah, so it is just a big @#$% sandwich for all of us? Good. Maybe we'll collectively stand up and say NO to the crap contract they're about to "unveil". It only gets better if we stand together.

Scott

Yes.
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datake,

Interesting points for certain. I wish there was a confirmed solid answer to the situation you describe. A couple of points to consider are the provisions of the TPA expire (such as pay provisions) on the effective date of a JCBA whenever that will be. On that date, true it isn't a recall for everyone, however any vacancy filling from that point forward will be from the furlough list rather than off the street. So say a furlough pilot comes back with X years of pay longevity (won't get into the furlough credit for pay discussion). That pilot will be paid based on whatever new payscale exists and their years of service, correct? But, somehow, a pilot that took the CAL position after a new JCBA is signed will somehow not have their total years of service at old UAL recognized until a recall? Anything is possible but I find that to be a stretch. I, however, haven't talked to any ALPA folks on the subject. Did you pose the question to your old UAL LEC to get their take?

Frats,
Lee

Have you looked at the den 737 pairings? Not exactly stellar material. I think theres more than a few guys who would be very happy to give the anc 2 day red eye back to the short bus.

Not sure how I would look at that as an LUAL guy, but no, I haven't. Doesn't surprise me, however. Max pain for the max number...

What I do know is that I've been based in Den for 17 years and as a severely senior 320 f/o (bottom 320 Cap seniority in Den), our flying is absolute #$%&. CLE, EWR and IAH. FWIW, I would love to be a Den 737 Cap like I was only 3 short years ago. Flying to places like LAS, PHX, PDX, SLC, GEG, SEA, ABQ, etc... Can't get enough of the new "United"...

FWIW, not angry at even one UCAL pilot (aside from the SCABS - they can rot in hell for all I care) for what has happened. It just hasn't been good for the Den UCAL pilots. Very bad, in fact.

Scott

Yes, I have and I'm still working on it. There is a whole group of very senior voluntary furlougee's agressively working on this matter too. They are junior new hires at CAL who realize that their pay will not be affected by a new CBA unless they are recalled to their rightful spot. Even though they have over 20 years seniority as United Pilots, they are only seen as a junior new hire until recall. There are a lot of United guys at CAL who are making an assumption that their pay will be adjusted to the new pay scale. Their current pay hasn't even been adjusted to the 2012 rates of the current L-UAL pay scale. Their pay is simply exactly what it was with no adjustments at the day of furlough or voluntary furlough until their CAL hire date dictates more.

Datake is totally correct. This question has been posed to several UAL LECs and furloughees will not get longevity credit unless it's specifically stipulated in the new JCBA, and every rumor until now says it's not in there! Additionally, it has not been written specifically that longevity at UAL will apply after the SLI, but rumors have it, that it WILL apply and combine your years, since there is suppose to be "no distinction of UAL vs CAL pilots after SLI implementation". Anyone else that comments to the contrary with no support, needs to keep their pinhole shut. Datake is correct and his fears are substantiated. Also, the odds of furloughees getting full longevity is a super long shot. CAL MEC does NOT want it, for fear that it will affect their pilot group. Does't matter that pay longevity should have no effect on SLI longevity, but they don't get it. And you aren't going to convince them otherwise so it will go to arbitration and each MEC will argue their points then.

Problem is, how long will it take for SLI completion?