Closed Thread
 

The moderators have closed my thread: Attention YES Voters.

Apparently he wants to wait until the TA is released. My contention is that once the TA is released, it's way too late to do anything. The TA will be voted in by the disinterested majority, the scabs, and the few that are convinced that 'it's the best we can do'.

I believe pressure should be brought to bear on the respective MEC's to reject the TA and send it back.

I respectfully request that the thread be reopened so the matter can be debated!

Agreed...
The fact that there is now an email/Blastmail for the CAL MEC stating that the info "leaked out" has some truth to it, should be enough to have the discussion about payscales.

I for one expect my LEC Reps to Vote NO. The thought of Delta's Payscale but minus one year is unacceptable.

As a 6th yr 756 FO, I will be making $103.61 as of 1 Jan 13, on the CAL Side of the house.
My "fellow" ALPA Pilots at Delta, flying the same equipment will be making $131.66.
If we put $117.67 on the table, it's not only a NO.. but it's a NO with the motivation to start DeCert Actions at ALPA.

What's even more troublesome is, if this is true (with regards to payscales..), how could the to MEC Chairs make the statements they did back in Aug when they announced the AIP's~?

“After working under a bankruptcy contract for nearly 10 years, the substantial contributions of the pilots in helping United Airlines survive its darkest economic days and make the United/Continental merger possible will, at last, be respected and rewarded,” said Captain Jay Heppner, chairman of the United Master Executive Council of the Air Line Pilots Association. “This pilot group has endured more than its share of sacrifices since 9/11. We have flown through the airline’s bankruptcy, taking drastic pay cuts and losing our pensions. We’ve witnessed the loss of thousands of United pilot jobs through outsourcing and off-shoring.

“This is a great win for the pilots, a great win for the American people, a great win for those who put safety first in America, and a great win for U.S. jobs. Once today’s agreements are finalized and approved by our membership, we look forward to getting to work under this new agreement and doing what we do best, which is providing United customers with a safe and comfortable traveling experience.

“We stand at the threshold of a new day at United Airlines and we are ready to join forces with our Continental brethren to help build the new United into the world’s preeminent airline.”

“After many years of enduring the hardships of concessionary and bankruptcy-era contracts, we are pleased to have finally reached an agreement that will allow our pilots and their families to see gains in compensation, work rules, job protections, and retirement and benefits,” said Captain Jay Pierce, chairman of the ALPA unit representing Continental pilots. “Our pilots must be recognized for the hundreds of millions of dollars in annual givebacks that ultimately allowed our airline to remain competitive, prosper and avoid the economic turmoil that befell others in the industry. Further, they deserve to be recognized for their role in building the success of the company and for the role they will play in the success of the merger of equals with United. We are pleased to be able to move forward with true progress towards completion of the merger of our airlines. Once there is pilot approval of this contract, the operations of the two airlines can finally begin to be integrated for the ultimate benefit of our passengers, pilots and United employees, and shareholders. We can begin to deliver on the promise of the world’s largest and best airline.”

So disgusted right now...

Motch

You know the sad part is all you CAL pilots who are stomping your feet and saying NO! But the truth is any TA on the table right now is the best flying and pay scales you will have ever seen since 1983. Now UAL pilots, not so much...

I know your mantra is "we had better scope!" And the reason why you had a better scope has been argued ad nauseam, here and on the official/unofficial blog.

union says two things today....

1. info leaked out is accurate
2. since it is leaked they can't prevent people from discussing it.

Now, this is NOT wikileaks by any means. Our union acknowledges the info is truthful and accurate.............

I see no policy of APC preventing the discussion of truthful and accurate info that was either intentionally, or unintentionally "leaked."

What makes you so sure this was accidental? Abbot has done this before as a way of twisting nipples on the Flight Instructor section of the CBA that never came to pass...........CBA 08. Before the merger scare 1, Abbot released the info to his "friends" in the training department and later acknolwedged that it came from him, while the union cried foul........

Whose to say that ALPA didn't just take a page out of Fred's playbook. I think it is not only possible, but plausible.

A disinterested majority?? Hmmm… I would submit that anyone who takes the time to examine the terms and then votes is hardly disinterested. After all, isn’t “majority rule” the concept that was being screeched when the “age 60 rule” was sent to the trash heap of history? There was no mention of a disinterested majority then. I guess for some, conflating the argument for “majority rule” when deciding on a compensation package that a majority may see as fair and reasonable and denying someone the opportunity to earn a livelihood that is based solely on an arbitrary construct can be confusing.

The Rep’s were elected by a majority rule and again there was no mention of anyone being disinterested. Why all of a sudden would the majority become disinterested during such a crucial time? You may believe that pressure should be placed on the respective MEC's to reject the TA and send it back, but what about the majority?

The negotiating committee was sent in to get the best deal they could and hopefully the MEC will put aside their personal bias and vote up or down according to how close the TA is to what they think the rank and file want. The mods should be congratulated for shutting down the thread because to debate something that is based on “leaked out info” that may have some truth and is not in its final and concrete form is purely conjecture and speculation. Let’s see what the deal is before there is debate and a vote taken. There will be plenty of time to debate the pros and cons.

I totally agree with your last sentence...however, the debate is over...accurate pay rates and accurate retro numbers, ...Hell NO! Nice debating with ya!

I'm not gonna expend too much energy looking things up since you are just trying to be a d**k, but my current concessionary pay rate flying the 737-800, for example, is 169/hr. The DOS pay rate being floated is 189 - 20/hr (that does not even meet inflation) does not get me excited. Now, the A320 CA is going to go from 138/hr to 189 overnight. Sorry if I don't share your enthusiasm that some of our brothers in blue aren't going to be swayed by that.

Oh, btw, the pay rate for flying the same airplane in 2001 was 179/hr. Now, I know that doesn't meet the vaunted UAL 2000, but I really am not moved the least by "gaining" 10/hr over a contract that was negotiated in 1997 and that is being hailed as a "great win for the American people" by Little Jay.

You guys seem to forget that we are also operating on a concessionary contract that gutted our work rules. Our Contract 97, while, again, not UA 2000, was a helluva lot better than the crap sandwich 58% of my "esteemed" brothers approved in 2005. A lot of the "gains" being floated around with this POS are not that much better than what we had 12 years ago, and some will certainly be a concession from your current CBA.

Now, as to the scope issue.. Holding the line at 50 seat jets was a watershed for us. This language was crafted back in 1997 when the only large turboprops in use was the BAe ATP (that UAX had) and the ATR-72. COEX had a few of those that never really worked that well and were not deemed a threat then. Would have been nice if our negotiators could have foreseen the more economical Q400, but that would not hit the drawing board until 3 years later.

I can wait this out until we get the JCBA that WE ALL deserve.

Lerxst:

You said this and just confirm what I know, "are not that much better than what we had 12 years ago, and some will certainly be a concession from your current CBA."

My point is I'm a bit worn out over a bunch of guys raising the flag when no matter how this contract turns out all of you will have a better contract than ever in your employment history at CAL.

Enough said.

If that is what you are hanging your hat on to feel superior to the CAL pilots, fine. I don't think that what is being floated, even if better than what we had 15 years ago, is anywhere near enough to compensate either pilot group for the sacrifices we collectively made to get Jeffy his cool 14 million. I'm sorry that you get hyper focused on what a few individuals say; there are enough chest beaters on both sides of the fence that need to be ignored.

calm down everyone. yes this is accurate info as the email says but it also says this term sheet may or may not have been passed on to management during the negotiation process. It is unclear by whom and how this term sheet was released. For all anyone knows this could have been part of a mock negotiation within the negotiation committee that some yahoo pulled out of the trash can.

That is normally sage advice..........But, ALPA is a ship built for stability. That means they don't want anyone rocking the boat. They don't want the customers (dues payers) to get a good look under the hood for fear we will not want to buy this lipstick wearing pig.

Let's not see what the deal is before there is debate and a vote. let's state our minimum standards and then measure those standards against what we know to be true and accurate.

There will NOT be plenty of time for debating the pros and cons. This will be a rush job with an effective date of Jan 1, 2013. The union has had this deal since July and still no VOTE from the MEC...........Even if I get it tomorrow, I'll need 2 weeks to read it before I can even make a list of questions.

Mark my words............we'll be rushed and there will be an "invented emergency" that forces us to accept it. Just like POS 02...........here we go again!

Lerxst

"If that is what you are hanging your hat on to feel superior to the CAL pilots, fine"

No my fine dude friend I have no vision of being superior to any pilot of any airline. I am just tired after almost 35 years of this stuff. Blabber mouth pilots who would complain if they had a new home and car negotiated into their contract. "It is too small," or "my neighbor, the doctor, got granite counter tops..."

Dude this contract isn't the end of anyone's world and quite frankly our respective MECs have done the best job I have ever seen in my contract history here at UAL. Right now I am waiting for the complete contract to review and also thank my reps and our Jay for all their hard work on our behalf.

Superior? Nope! Thankful? Yes!

Wait, you don't want to thank our Jay??? I kid, I kid.... :D

Absolutely agree with you. We each have one vote, I hope we use them well for the betterment of our collective futures.

I know it's hard to believe, but I'm not on every union's mailing list. Didn't get the memo (in my best Dr. Evil voice).


The portion of the forum rules that covers this is:There are many, many scenarios that would make it impossible to write specific rules for, but the text above can be read as "we reserve the right to use good judgement". Our "judgement" can generally be interpreted to mean we that may want to hedge liability, prevent damage to a pilot's livelihood, prevent the a pilot's personal information from being divulged, or avoid hosting a company's or union's confidential information. That's certainly not a comprehensive list, but you get the idea and we have been consistent there for going on 7 years.

I completely understand that our ability to use judgement is at direct odds with your desire to pass judgment.

At this time, and until the CAL/UAL TA is made public in it's entirety by both MECs, we'll have to agree to disagree.

It will be like the Obamascare bill. You have to pass it before you find out what's in it....

This is all over the net now so unfortunately only APC members will be left behind in the discussion. Censorship on the web, really does it exist!

I agree totally! No disinterest as far as I have heard, actually just the opposite. The majority will prevail and that is what membership ratification is all about.

(disclaimer) This assessment is not derived from any company or union proprietary information, nor any incidental releases of negotiaing term sheets, interum, intermediate, finalized, or otherwise derived from classified, confidnetial, personal, or other secretive data that is/is not meant for private, public, or union member consumption or consideration.

This assesment derived solely from my voodoo witch doctor and in consultation with Deione Warwick's Psychic Friends Network, John Travolta, Tom Cruise, and other mystics, enchanted persons, and in some cases.........those just in the know.


I predict ALPA will rush us, with a heavy dose of full court press communications from National and our EF&A advisors. Our local union reps will merely repeat what National is saying. They will sell us a contract that pays less than Delta and they will tell us this is the best that they can do. The wardrobe malfunction (inadvertent release of data) merely solidified what I already knew was going on behind the scenes.

Now in union communications I no longer read the words "agreement in principle." In the last two communications the agreement was referred to a "TA." This in my mind means our union has bought off on it............ Read your emails again.......and you will notice the subtle change in adjectives.

Not even close Regularguy. A snapshot shows only $10 more than Contract ’97 rates or $56 less when adjusted for inflation. Unlimited trip trades and reasonable work rules made Contract '97 a pleasure to work under compared to anything else we've seen since (including "leaked" info). In the meantime, UAL asked for and received the highest pay scales in the industry, under which the airline promptly went bankrupt.

Oh so THAT is the reason why UAL went Bankrupt.........got it. LOL

You have lost all credibility from this pilot.

........X2!