Closed Thread
10-16-2012 | 05:54 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 230
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From: Retired
Closed Thread
The moderators have closed my thread: Attention YES Voters.
Apparently he wants to wait until the TA is released. My contention is that once the TA is released, it's way too late to do anything. The TA will be voted in by the disinterested majority, the scabs, and the few that are convinced that 'it's the best we can do'.
I believe pressure should be brought to bear on the respective MEC's to reject the TA and send it back.
I respectfully request that the thread be reopened so the matter can be debated!
Apparently he wants to wait until the TA is released. My contention is that once the TA is released, it's way too late to do anything. The TA will be voted in by the disinterested majority, the scabs, and the few that are convinced that 'it's the best we can do'.
I believe pressure should be brought to bear on the respective MEC's to reject the TA and send it back.
I respectfully request that the thread be reopened so the matter can be debated!
10-16-2012 | 06:27 AM
#2
Banned
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,629
Likes: 0
From: 756 Left Side
Agreed...
The fact that there is now an email/Blastmail for the CAL MEC stating that the info "leaked out" has some truth to it, should be enough to have the discussion about payscales.
I for one expect my LEC Reps to Vote NO. The thought of Delta's Payscale but minus one year is unacceptable.
As a 6th yr 756 FO, I will be making $103.61 as of 1 Jan 13, on the CAL Side of the house.
My "fellow" ALPA Pilots at Delta, flying the same equipment will be making $131.66.
If we put $117.67 on the table, it's not only a NO.. but it's a NO with the motivation to start DeCert Actions at ALPA.
What's even more troublesome is, if this is true (with regards to payscales..), how could the to MEC Chairs make the statements they did back in Aug when they announced the AIP's~?
“After working under a bankruptcy contract for nearly 10 years, the substantial contributions of the pilots in helping United Airlines survive its darkest economic days and make the United/Continental merger possible will, at last, be respected and rewarded,” said Captain Jay Heppner, chairman of the United Master Executive Council of the Air Line Pilots Association. “This pilot group has endured more than its share of sacrifices since 9/11. We have flown through the airline’s bankruptcy, taking drastic pay cuts and losing our pensions. We’ve witnessed the loss of thousands of United pilot jobs through outsourcing and off-shoring.
“This is a great win for the pilots, a great win for the American people, a great win for those who put safety first in America, and a great win for U.S. jobs. Once today’s agreements are finalized and approved by our membership, we look forward to getting to work under this new agreement and doing what we do best, which is providing United customers with a safe and comfortable traveling experience.
“We stand at the threshold of a new day at United Airlines and we are ready to join forces with our Continental brethren to help build the new United into the world’s preeminent airline.”
“After many years of enduring the hardships of concessionary and bankruptcy-era contracts, we are pleased to have finally reached an agreement that will allow our pilots and their families to see gains in compensation, work rules, job protections, and retirement and benefits,” said Captain Jay Pierce, chairman of the ALPA unit representing Continental pilots. “Our pilots must be recognized for the hundreds of millions of dollars in annual givebacks that ultimately allowed our airline to remain competitive, prosper and avoid the economic turmoil that befell others in the industry. Further, they deserve to be recognized for their role in building the success of the company and for the role they will play in the success of the merger of equals with United. We are pleased to be able to move forward with true progress towards completion of the merger of our airlines. Once there is pilot approval of this contract, the operations of the two airlines can finally begin to be integrated for the ultimate benefit of our passengers, pilots and United employees, and shareholders. We can begin to deliver on the promise of the world’s largest and best airline.”
So disgusted right now...
Motch
The fact that there is now an email/Blastmail for the CAL MEC stating that the info "leaked out" has some truth to it, should be enough to have the discussion about payscales.
I for one expect my LEC Reps to Vote NO. The thought of Delta's Payscale but minus one year is unacceptable.
As a 6th yr 756 FO, I will be making $103.61 as of 1 Jan 13, on the CAL Side of the house.
My "fellow" ALPA Pilots at Delta, flying the same equipment will be making $131.66.
If we put $117.67 on the table, it's not only a NO.. but it's a NO with the motivation to start DeCert Actions at ALPA.
What's even more troublesome is, if this is true (with regards to payscales..), how could the to MEC Chairs make the statements they did back in Aug when they announced the AIP's~?
“After working under a bankruptcy contract for nearly 10 years, the substantial contributions of the pilots in helping United Airlines survive its darkest economic days and make the United/Continental merger possible will, at last, be respected and rewarded,” said Captain Jay Heppner, chairman of the United Master Executive Council of the Air Line Pilots Association. “This pilot group has endured more than its share of sacrifices since 9/11. We have flown through the airline’s bankruptcy, taking drastic pay cuts and losing our pensions. We’ve witnessed the loss of thousands of United pilot jobs through outsourcing and off-shoring.
“This is a great win for the pilots, a great win for the American people, a great win for those who put safety first in America, and a great win for U.S. jobs. Once today’s agreements are finalized and approved by our membership, we look forward to getting to work under this new agreement and doing what we do best, which is providing United customers with a safe and comfortable traveling experience.
“We stand at the threshold of a new day at United Airlines and we are ready to join forces with our Continental brethren to help build the new United into the world’s preeminent airline.”
“After many years of enduring the hardships of concessionary and bankruptcy-era contracts, we are pleased to have finally reached an agreement that will allow our pilots and their families to see gains in compensation, work rules, job protections, and retirement and benefits,” said Captain Jay Pierce, chairman of the ALPA unit representing Continental pilots. “Our pilots must be recognized for the hundreds of millions of dollars in annual givebacks that ultimately allowed our airline to remain competitive, prosper and avoid the economic turmoil that befell others in the industry. Further, they deserve to be recognized for their role in building the success of the company and for the role they will play in the success of the merger of equals with United. We are pleased to be able to move forward with true progress towards completion of the merger of our airlines. Once there is pilot approval of this contract, the operations of the two airlines can finally begin to be integrated for the ultimate benefit of our passengers, pilots and United employees, and shareholders. We can begin to deliver on the promise of the world’s largest and best airline.”
So disgusted right now...
Motch
10-16-2012 | 02:51 PM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,559
Likes: 0
From: A Nobody
You know the sad part is all you CAL pilots who are stomping your feet and saying NO! But the truth is any TA on the table right now is the best flying and pay scales you will have ever seen since 1983. Now UAL pilots, not so much...
I know your mantra is "we had better scope!" And the reason why you had a better scope has been argued ad nauseam, here and on the official/unofficial blog.
I know your mantra is "we had better scope!" And the reason why you had a better scope has been argued ad nauseam, here and on the official/unofficial blog.
10-16-2012 | 03:05 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 467
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union says two things today....
1. info leaked out is accurate
2. since it is leaked they can't prevent people from discussing it.
Now, this is NOT wikileaks by any means. Our union acknowledges the info is truthful and accurate.............
I see no policy of APC preventing the discussion of truthful and accurate info that was either intentionally, or unintentionally "leaked."
What makes you so sure this was accidental? Abbot has done this before as a way of twisting nipples on the Flight Instructor section of the CBA that never came to pass...........CBA 08. Before the merger scare 1, Abbot released the info to his "friends" in the training department and later acknolwedged that it came from him, while the union cried foul........
Whose to say that ALPA didn't just take a page out of Fred's playbook. I think it is not only possible, but plausible.
1. info leaked out is accurate
2. since it is leaked they can't prevent people from discussing it.
Now, this is NOT wikileaks by any means. Our union acknowledges the info is truthful and accurate.............
I see no policy of APC preventing the discussion of truthful and accurate info that was either intentionally, or unintentionally "leaked."
What makes you so sure this was accidental? Abbot has done this before as a way of twisting nipples on the Flight Instructor section of the CBA that never came to pass...........CBA 08. Before the merger scare 1, Abbot released the info to his "friends" in the training department and later acknolwedged that it came from him, while the union cried foul........
Whose to say that ALPA didn't just take a page out of Fred's playbook. I think it is not only possible, but plausible.
10-16-2012 | 03:11 PM
#5
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
From: Over 60 and Still Living the Dream
The moderators have closed my thread: Attention YES Voters.
Apparently he wants to wait until the TA is released. My contention is that once the TA is released, it's way too late to do anything. The TA will be voted in by the disinterested majority, the scabs, and the few that are convinced that 'it's the best we can do'.
I believe pressure should be brought to bear on the respective MEC's to reject the TA and send it back.
I respectfully request that the thread be reopened so the matter can be debated!
Apparently he wants to wait until the TA is released. My contention is that once the TA is released, it's way too late to do anything. The TA will be voted in by the disinterested majority, the scabs, and the few that are convinced that 'it's the best we can do'.
I believe pressure should be brought to bear on the respective MEC's to reject the TA and send it back.
I respectfully request that the thread be reopened so the matter can be debated!
A disinterested majority?? Hmmm… I would submit that anyone who takes the time to examine the terms and then votes is hardly disinterested. After all, isn’t “majority rule” the concept that was being screeched when the “age 60 rule” was sent to the trash heap of history? There was no mention of a disinterested majority then. I guess for some, conflating the argument for “majority rule” when deciding on a compensation package that a majority may see as fair and reasonable and denying someone the opportunity to earn a livelihood that is based solely on an arbitrary construct can be confusing.
The Rep’s were elected by a majority rule and again there was no mention of anyone being disinterested. Why all of a sudden would the majority become disinterested during such a crucial time? You may believe that pressure should be placed on the respective MEC's to reject the TA and send it back, but what about the majority?
The negotiating committee was sent in to get the best deal they could and hopefully the MEC will put aside their personal bias and vote up or down according to how close the TA is to what they think the rank and file want. The mods should be congratulated for shutting down the thread because to debate something that is based on “leaked out info” that may have some truth and is not in its final and concrete form is purely conjecture and speculation. Let’s see what the deal is before there is debate and a vote taken. There will be plenty of time to debate the pros and cons.
10-16-2012 | 03:34 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
From: Cal reserve..the gift that keeps on giving
A disinterested majority?? Hmmm… I would submit that anyone who takes the time to examine the terms and then votes is hardly disinterested. After all, isn’t “majority rule” the concept that was being screeched when the “age 60 rule” was sent to the trash heap of history? There was no mention of a disinterested majority then. I guess for some, conflating the argument for “majority rule” when deciding on a compensation package that a majority may see as fair and reasonable and denying someone the opportunity to earn a livelihood that is based solely on an arbitrary construct can be confusing.
The Rep’s were elected by a majority rule and again there was no mention of anyone being disinterested. Why all of a sudden would the majority become disinterested during such a crucial time? You may believe that pressure should be placed on the respective MEC's to reject the TA and send it back, but what about the majority?
The negotiating committee was sent in to get the best deal they could and hopefully the MEC will put aside their personal bias and vote up or down according to how close the TA is to what they think the rank and file want. The mods should be congratulated for shutting down the thread because to debate something that is based on “leaked out info” that may have some truth and is not in its final and concrete form is purely conjecture and speculation. Let’s see what the deal is before there is debate and a vote taken. There will be plenty of time to debate the pros and cons.
The Rep’s were elected by a majority rule and again there was no mention of anyone being disinterested. Why all of a sudden would the majority become disinterested during such a crucial time? You may believe that pressure should be placed on the respective MEC's to reject the TA and send it back, but what about the majority?
The negotiating committee was sent in to get the best deal they could and hopefully the MEC will put aside their personal bias and vote up or down according to how close the TA is to what they think the rank and file want. The mods should be congratulated for shutting down the thread because to debate something that is based on “leaked out info” that may have some truth and is not in its final and concrete form is purely conjecture and speculation. Let’s see what the deal is before there is debate and a vote taken. There will be plenty of time to debate the pros and cons.
10-16-2012 | 03:50 PM
#7
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 735
Likes: 0
From: B787 CA - SFO
You know the sad part is all you CAL pilots who are stomping your feet and saying NO! But the truth is any TA on the table right now is the best flying and pay scales you will have ever seen since 1983. Now UAL pilots, not so much...
I know your mantra is "we had better scope!" And the reason why you had a better scope has been argued ad nauseam, here and on the official/unofficial blog.
I know your mantra is "we had better scope!" And the reason why you had a better scope has been argued ad nauseam, here and on the official/unofficial blog.
Oh, btw, the pay rate for flying the same airplane in 2001 was 179/hr. Now, I know that doesn't meet the vaunted UAL 2000, but I really am not moved the least by "gaining" 10/hr over a contract that was negotiated in 1997 and that is being hailed as a "great win for the American people" by Little Jay.
You guys seem to forget that we are also operating on a concessionary contract that gutted our work rules. Our Contract 97, while, again, not UA 2000, was a helluva lot better than the crap sandwich 58% of my "esteemed" brothers approved in 2005. A lot of the "gains" being floated around with this POS are not that much better than what we had 12 years ago, and some will certainly be a concession from your current CBA.
Now, as to the scope issue.. Holding the line at 50 seat jets was a watershed for us. This language was crafted back in 1997 when the only large turboprops in use was the BAe ATP (that UAX had) and the ATR-72. COEX had a few of those that never really worked that well and were not deemed a threat then. Would have been nice if our negotiators could have foreseen the more economical Q400, but that would not hit the drawing board until 3 years later.
I can wait this out until we get the JCBA that WE ALL deserve.
10-16-2012 | 04:14 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,559
Likes: 0
From: A Nobody
Lerxst:
You said this and just confirm what I know, "are not that much better than what we had 12 years ago, and some will certainly be a concession from your current CBA."
My point is I'm a bit worn out over a bunch of guys raising the flag when no matter how this contract turns out all of you will have a better contract than ever in your employment history at CAL.
Enough said.
You said this and just confirm what I know, "are not that much better than what we had 12 years ago, and some will certainly be a concession from your current CBA."
My point is I'm a bit worn out over a bunch of guys raising the flag when no matter how this contract turns out all of you will have a better contract than ever in your employment history at CAL.
Enough said.
10-16-2012 | 04:28 PM
#10
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 735
Likes: 0
From: B787 CA - SFO
Lerxst:
You said this and just confirm what I know, "are not that much better than what we had 12 years ago, and some will certainly be a concession from your current CBA."
My point is I'm a bit worn out over a bunch of guys raising the flag when no matter how this contract turns out all of you will have a better contract than ever in your employment history at CAL.
Enough said.
You said this and just confirm what I know, "are not that much better than what we had 12 years ago, and some will certainly be a concession from your current CBA."
My point is I'm a bit worn out over a bunch of guys raising the flag when no matter how this contract turns out all of you will have a better contract than ever in your employment history at CAL.
Enough said.
If that is what you are hanging your hat on to feel superior to the CAL pilots, fine. I don't think that what is being floated, even if better than what we had 15 years ago, is anywhere near enough to compensate either pilot group for the sacrifices we collectively made to get Jeffy his cool 14 million. I'm sorry that you get hyper focused on what a few individuals say; there are enough chest beaters on both sides of the fence that need to be ignored.
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