Enough Already!
 

I'm at work at the Double Tree SFO bar on my iPhone, and I just can't stand it. I wish Unicorn's were real and cheeseburgers were healthy but the reality is we live in a world of cut throat competition. I get the fact that CAL pilots suddenly feel like king of the hill and expect to be treated as such and I get that UAL '99 hires feel wronged , BUT that does not excuse the gross misrepresentations flooding this forum. There are a few minor "turds" but overall this contract is industry leading and that's a fact. Pick any single issue and I will do my best to respond.

Pay: no meaningful difference when viewed by the general public especially if you look at profit sharing.

Retro: Largest retro award in history. Bankruptcy exit is paid in equity and is a whole different animal.

Scope: by far the most misunderstood aspect. Delta and United already gave this one away but the scope provisions are TIGHTER now than previously. Period. If you want to argue this you need to start by answering the question how many 70 seat Q400s are allowed under the current contract and how many are allowed if the TA passes.

Joe Peck
IADFO

QWL: I get 5 days more vacation.

Reassignment: CAL had zero nada no restrictions now they have a limit and extra pay.

Rest Seats: CAL had nothing. Now they get curtained private lie flat beds

What you said! Prepare yourself for the onslaught of hyperbole! 5 hrs/day pay! No more 12 days off 70 hour months. 3.25% 401K increase for s-Cal. Pay increase happens NOW, vs "who knows when"(time value of $$). Take the $$ in Bob Barkers hand instead of door number 2. Training pay increase. Vacation pay increase. Reserve min guarantee bump. 13 days off on reserve in a 31 day month. S-UAL PI/LCA pay improvements. S-CAL over 65 instructors get the boot. More line pilots can be instructors. Yes,there are some bad points, but overall a large improvement.

Keep drinking at the bar..you are gonna need to hang on to that buzz and savor that feeling when you are sitting airport reserve with the FA's and when they roll your off days( does ANY other real airline do that?)..but it is nice to know that the Double tree serves kool aid.:confused:

How do you feel about Field Standby for no pay?

How do you feel about the Company getting 90 Seats ... but wait ... they will only put 76 seats in them. Isn't this the same thing that pi$$ed everyone off in the Whiteford letter?

This JCBA is a POS and I will be voting "NO." I hope the UCAL guys overwhelmingly vote no to offset my fellow UAL pilots that are afraid of "what might happen" if this goes down.

Not if you are on Reserve. The reserve's get royally screwed in this POS!

On the sUAL side, a vacation drop pays full credit, borrowing from next year's vacation. Instead of taking annual vacation at 2.8hrs/day, I can now drop a 7:30 one-day turn and be paid the full 7:30. For this drop, I use one vacation day from next year. In the TA, each of next year's vacation days are worth only 3.25. To drop this same one-day turn, they will still pay me 7:30, but they will take away 2.31 vacation days from next year. (7.5 / 3.25 = 2.31). ....and the guys over 25 years had their annual vacation reduced from 44 days to 42.

Again, this just your opinion and other LCAL and LUAL are entitled to their opinion. You don't like that, fine.

Have you seen the response from the 4 LCAL LEC reps that voted no? If not you might want to. Just because we don't vote the way you think we should does not make us less informed or less concerned.

If you and others think this is a good TA then vote for it. But others like me think this is not a good TA and will vote against it. To not stand for what you think is right is wrong.

Are you actually a United Air Lines pilot?

Dude...he gave you his name and domicile. Are you?

Dude, I saw that. There was a little sarcasm in my post, just in case you missed it.

What I see is too many UAL guys giving up on industry leading and saying "standard" is okay, live to fight another day, etc. if this TA is voted yes, I will immediately gain at least $30 per hour and then at least another $10 per hour after SLI...that is right at a 50% increase for me. Do I need the money...yes. Will I vote NO...YES. This group needs to grow a set and vote for what is right...NOW...not later.

And yes, I am a UAL pilot...twice furloughed working on the CAL side of the house, where they apparently have more unionist who don't want a crappy TA than UAL has right now.

Regards,

Terry Hayes
DCA FO (furloughed twice)
IAH FO (working for peanuts)

Sunvox,

Please rationalize LOA 25....

Who cares what the public thinks? he public thinks the computers do all the flying and airplanes should be flown by a single pilot and a dog. After the initial pay bump there is NO raise until 2014. Industry leading quickly becomes industry lagging Dos J-Lo's salary do the same?


Wrong. I voted for 2 contracts at Continental Express in the 90s. Both times we voted down the first offers, both times we got betters ones the second time, and both times we got FULL RETRO PAY.

How many TAs have the Cal/UAL pilots voted down? How much Retro did you get?


I always thought major airline pilots were the ones who stood up and fought, not caved and crawled away.

Quit the whining. Fight.

Joe Peck = Tits Up

Quick word on scope:

It's all about the new ratio limit. 550 rjs are at 112% they quickly get to 120% with only a couple new planes. No one wants more 50 seaters so the company is interested in 70/76 seaters but the only way to add them and not go over the 120% ratio is by retiring 50 seaters which is obviously already happening industry wide as well as at UAL. Then once the company goes over 153 70/76ers the ratio begins to tighten even more unless they buy the 90 seater and fly it with UAL.

It's a major get that no one understands or is explaining properly. IT'S HUGE. The company has every incentive in the world to go out and buy the 90 to rationalize the future growth of the 70 seater it's their only option.

The dude who threw out the 743 number was ignoring the fact that UAX is already close to the capped ratio and can only increase by exchange.

Not Sunvox, but a FAQ sheet put out a few days ago...

...10. Why does it look like I'll be losing longevity when the furloughed pilot calculations are finished?

What happened to all the chest thumpers that were going to hold the line on 50 seat scope come hell or high water? Must be counting the new found coin in their pockets already. Disgusting.

We're here....voting no...can't wait.

Scope was never going to back to 50 seats without a full blown strike in my opinion. It sucks 100%, but most mainline pilots gave that up years ago and that genie wasn't going back in the bottle. At least at the following anyway, Alaska, American, Delta, UAL, and USAIR. I don't know how CAL was able to hold the line when so much of their contract stinks, but kudos to them for holding it.

70 seats was, in my opinion a reasonable new line in the sand along with specific language (tail numbers) limiting their numbers. But, clearly the MEC's don't agree with me. After all, its not like they actually polled us or published their emails and phone numbers for input. Or did they?

All I can do now is vote no.

Exactly! Many just can't see past the 76 seat number. Many also say this TA is the Delta contract minus the 717 carrot. Like Sunvox said, there is a carrot, and its the 190. Mainline has to grow with a SNB aircraft before management can maximize their 76 seater options.

Pilot Longevity/Seniority is arguably the most contentious and litigated issue in ALPA. CAL sat down with 2 drop dead issues SLI and Scope. Didn't win scope so you bet your bottom dollar they were gonna win something for SLI. Put the '99s ahead of the '08s and you get 4000 angry pilots. Throw the '99s under the bus and you get 300 voting angry pilots. That's politics and it stinks to High Heaven, but IF this TA is voted down you can bet LOA 25 will get worse NOT better. Plus ALPA policy favors Longevity and NOT D.O.H. Again it stinks but that is the Machiavellian reality.

Ok, you said it. A Typical 99 hire has 8 years longevity, an 08 hire has 4 years longevity. ALPA policy favors what?? I guess its the Machiavellian reality.

Simple:

I demand more.

Simple as that.

600 Million still on the table for offer # 2 - and you want to sign the "pitch"?

Is this your first rodeo?

Riddle Boy the reason many of us refuse to allow new larger airframes is cause we watched AA, DAL, and UAL pilots get bought off from '98-'01. Unsurprisingly when times got tough management knew they could drive RJ's down legacy drivers throat which they did. Which is also why you look wicked cool in that shiny new jet!

Many of us find all ALPA talk of drawing a line at 76 seats to be utter BS. DAL and will UAL airframe size concessions will cause the magic line to be discarded as soon as this industry goes back in the crapper. Management are the numbnuts that overloaded on the 50 seaters. Not my error so not my problem. Btw the 190 rates are significantly below JetBlue.

Do tell? Comparison, please, for all the Kool-aid drinkers.

I'll make it the 2014 numbers for arguments sake even though that assumes JB gets no raise.

Years 1/2/3/4/5
JB FO: 49/64/75/81/85
UAL FO: 66.10/66.10/76.10/77.95/79.80

JB CA : 128/130/132/133/135
UAL CA: 120.64/121.54/122.54/123.53/124.48

Bottom line no real cause to puff our chests out for obtaining a CRJ-900/EMB-190 pay scale.

Definitely not my first "Rodeo", and I wanted to strike in 2003 when UAL-ALPA ran scared from the bankruptcy judge which APA has shown was unnecessary, but today I am most concerned about the UAL/CAL ALPA merger. I think the interests of these two groups are at polar opposites and if this contract goes back to management I believe absolutely 100% that the CAL side will shoot down any future agreement and we will end up with a USAir tragedy of epic proportions and ruin the careers of the entire L-UAL pilot group. Step one will be the retirement of the 757 fleet forcing massive layoffs at L-UAL and step two will be placing all new NB jet orders at L-CAL. L-UAL will become a much smaller widebody only company with no growth and no contract. We need to complete the SLI to align the pilot group interests and THEN fight for a better future. Is this contract "Good". No. Is this contract enough to make it another 5 years before I'm willing to go on strike? Yes.

I believe strongly the fight here is with CAL-ALPA right now and NOT management. They put in pay banding comparing a 767 to a 747 while separating a 757-200 from a 757-300, they put in LOA 25, and they (CAL-ALPA) have said publicly they can live with no contract indefinitely because life's pretty good in their eyes with lots of movement and shiny new planes on their side. I'm closing my eyes and pinching my nose and voting yes to the TA, but I'm gonna expect big things in 2017-2019. Nothing in life good comes fast and sadly the political reality of this bargaining process has seriously handicapped the L-UAL pilot group.

Joe Peck
IADFO

One snapshot look at 5 year Capt. pay with the whole picture:


UAL $124.48 + 16% B-Fund = $144

versus

$135 with no A or B Fund.

plus profit sharing better as well for UAL.

Any L-UAL pilot who overlooks these issues is making a grave error.

When and where, and more specifically WHO on the cal side said that we can live with this POS current contract indefinitely ???? I know I can't and will be voting accordingly.

I believe there is a letter from a EWR CAL rep with those exact words floating around the board here. I'll look to find it, but in any case I have spoken with two members of our UAL-MEC and they both have said that this is the constant spoken and unspoken threat in almost every meeting. Why else would any reasonable UAL pilot negotiator agree to LOA25 and banding a 76 with a 74.

Hoss, that is why is am no longer listening to a damn thing ANY sCAL pilot says on this or any other forum. CAL guys are looking at things from their (much more beneficial) side of the T&PA. UAL guys have one hell of a lot to lose here. CAL pilots not so much. In fact, I will go so far as to say that sCAL will only gain from sUAL's loss. Is this fear? You bet. Fear that I may not be able to support my family. How many CAL pilots do you think are worrying about that right now? I think you know how I'm voting.

WOW...what a shame of what happened to the United pilots. The true union pilots are mostly gone and all that is left is weak d*ck pilots who will SETTLE for anything because of fear...WOW I cant believe you guys have no spine in you.

[QUOTE=uaav8r;1296089]Hoss, that is why is am no longer listening to a damn thing ANY sCAL pilot says on this or any other forum. CAL guys are looking at things from their (much more beneficial) side of the T&PA. UAL guys have one hell of a lot to lose here. CAL pilots not so much. In fact, I will go so far as to say that sCAL will only gain from sUAL's loss. QUOTE]

Just like LUAL pilots are looking at it from their view point as they should. If you think LCAL guys like this POS TA then why did more of our LEC rep vote against it then yours? I am voting No and I think the majority of my brothers and sisters at LCAL will do the same. It would be nice to see the breakdown of the vote after it happens.

We (LCAL) are like that relative that you don't really like and only see at Christmas. However, we are still family.

Have a happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas

I figured I'd get a quick response. Look CAL, you and I may work for the same outfit but your position on your side of the T&PA affords you the luxury that no matter what happens here, you are UNAFFECTED. Not so with me. You can make all kinds of macho statements if it makes you feel better. It is easy for you because at the end of the day YOU do not have to worry about the things that I have to consider.

Once you separate the B.S. from the beef this what we are left with. The only side that loses BIG TIME if this thing drags on are the L-UAL guys. L-CAL guys have nothing to lose if this thing drags on. L-UAL guys will lose everything, that's how it's been playing out and it will only get worse for us.

Wow, you talk so tough. While behind the scenes your union is colluding with the company to F every sUAL pilot 3 ways to Sunday.

Mgt vs Union = fair fight. Mgt + CAL Union vs. UAL Union...not so fair anymore.

A lot of people on the UAL side are so fed up with JPos and his band of merry men that they are in a position of choosing between two evils. The consenses is swinging towards a "yes" vote because your leadership is decidedly more evil than this POS TA and is the proverbial alligator that is closest to our conoe.

So save some of your tough guy talk for your beloved leader JPos (who brought you this TA) while he and Fred figure out how to fork us over some more.

It appears that mgmt was playing chess while the MEC's were playing checkers all along. It all started with the TPA that, ironically, Heppner helped craft when he was NC chair under Wendy. That document served to basically codify existing scope ratios and protections in the CAL CBA for the UA pilots. There was no substantial gain for the CAL side in that regard.

Where the massive failure occurred was this time last year at the TPA renegotiations. Smisek had already shown his intrinsic reluctance to actively bargain with us, and by allowing TPA2 to have another sunset date only a year away gave the company the timeline and bargainng leverage they needed to drag this out and split the pilot groups into haves and have nots to secure a yes vote for a sub-standard TA made under duress.

I empathize with my lUal brothers over this decision, but I weep for all of us going forward because the scorched earth mentality approach to labor relations is all Team Smisek knows and cares to employ.