Airline Pilot Central Forums - TPA will not expire

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilotbiffster (Post 1297102)

The idea that this misrepresentation is being propagated by at least two former stewards of the MEC who knew of the negotiations of this provision is irresponsible

No, the irresponsibility is both mecs's selling this pile of crap as the ta we have been waiting for for 4 years. It's like the Stockholm syndrome; you start to identify with your captors and see them as human. Mgmt is far from that.

The people who negotiated the TP&A know. The company negotiators know how they will testify as to "the intent" of that provision in the inevitable grievance. That will be the year after next, long after the company does what it wants to do with the whipsaw.

Didn't the UAL-MEC lose 44 million of ALPA dollars on the bond issue because no one wanted to ask what was the negotiators intent for that money? It did not even have to go to court.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach67 (Post 1297256)

The guys in 1985 didn't vote out of fear and they got rid of the B-Scale. I won't vote out of fear either even if it's my own MEC trying to use fear tactics!

The strike in 1985 did NOT get rid of the B-Scale. We achieved a much better contract but the fact is we still settled for a B-Scale. If this TA gets turned down, the same result will happen, possibly some gains, but certainly not near what people are hoping for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach67 (Post 1297393)

This is for those that are interested in propagating fear AND for those that want the facts:

Here are the pertinent lines,
"if the parties have not reached a tentative agreement on a JCBA by that date."

It doesn't say have a TA on that date. It says "by that date." It also doesn't say a ratified TA or a JCBA.

But guess what ... it is differentiated in another section of the TPA that contains the following statement:
If at any time the JNCs reach a tentative JCBA but it fails to be approved, ratified or executed under ALPA procedures, the Parties will apply for or resume the NMB’s mediatory services, unless they agree not to do so.

So clearly the parties differentiated between reaching a TA for the purposes of the expiration clauses, AND one that fails to be approved, ratified and executed to reengage the NMB. There were no such qualifiers put on the terminable provision clause.

So if there are still those trying to propagate fear … their points are baseless. The parties wouldn't articulate it one way in one section of the T&PA and another way with ratified language / failed TA in another part of the T&PA unless there was meant for a clear distinction. In this case, the actual language supports the fact that the terminable provisions do not terminate because there was a TA reached "by that date.”

The idea that this misrepresentation of expiring provisions being propagated by the MEC to place fear in those that would vote NO is the thing that is irresponsible! Not the former stewards of the Association who are pointing out the facts to assuage some fear!

No one is attempting to convince you to vote yes or no ... just however you vote ... don't fall into the vote for fear trap!

Why don't you ask the people that negotiated the agreement what it means. Their take is different than yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UalHvy (Post 1298875)

Why don't you ask the people that negotiated the agreement what it means. Their take is different than yours.

I have and they've dodged the question! Their answers are very vague and won't come out and say that they do expire!

I predict they will give a very definitive answer after the TA vote is announced!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach67 (Post 1299069)

I have and they've dodged the question! Their answers are very vague and won't come out and say that they do expire!

I predict they will give a very definitive answer after the TA vote is announced!

Are you prepared then to take a gamble with your fellow 6000+ UAL pilots' careers and assume that things will turn out alright with your assumption? I for one am not in a position to risk my family's livelihood. I fully get why sCAL guys don't want to vote this thing in. They are in a position to gamble. If it fails, every month that passes beyond december represents massive movement and career progression on their side that can't be undone and there is absolutely zero risk on their part. I don't blame them one bit and therefore am done debating with them. When I see a fellow UAL guy (or gal) against this, however, I have to remind them that their vote will likely be the a pivotal one that determines our collective future. All I'm asking is that you vote wisely and look at all of those that are voting this down and consider what truly motivates them and what is their level of risk. Whether a 7 year CAL captain or Ms. Morse herself, neither finds themselves in the same precarious position that the majority of your fellow UAL brethren have been put. The vote is yours alone, but we collectively will live with the outcome.

TPA will not expire

"Are you prepared then to take a gamble with your fellow 6000+ UAL pilots' careers and assume that things will turn out alright with your assumption? I for one am not in a position to risk my family's livelihood. "

By voting yes you are costing my family over $60k and 54 days vacation in the next four years. Plus it'll set me up for a staple.
So yes, you are screwing the careers of the bottom 2000 pilots at UAL.

Thanks, we won't forget it.

If the furlough protection is terminated, then each furloughee will receive 4.5 mo furlough pay, a short, well deserved vacation with the family, and the a job on the CAL side at the pay rate you left s-UAL with.

That would be an expensive proposition for management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by uaav8r (Post 1299082)

I fully get why sCAL guys don't want to vote this thing in. They are in a position to gamble. If it fails, every month that passes beyond december represents massive movement and career progression on their side that can't be undone and there is absolutely zero risk on their part.

Why would this matter? Wasn't the merger "snapshot" taken once the merger was announced or completed? If so, anything that happens after should not matter for the SLI. Also, if CAL pilots want to drag their feet for a possible advantage in the SLI and continue working under their terrible contact..does not make much sense to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dicecal (Post 1299306)

You are correct. The SLI should not matter. But apparently to your MEC it does...i.e. LOA25. Bottom line is that if your side was mothballing 85 757's in the coming year, offering LOA's, shrinking the F/A ranks and the VP of Flt Ops was making comments about "harvesting" your flying, you too might be inclined to wrap up this ISL ASAP. But, your CAL, not UAL....so, either way everything will be ok for you.