LOA 25 Paragraph 4
 

As of this evening, ALPA and the company have been contacted by the Attorney's representing the furloughed United pilots. A demand was made to remove Paragraph 4 of LOA 25 before voting begins. The two MEC's can choose to do this on their own, Lee Moak can do it, The ALPA Executive Board can invoke Article XIX and remove the CAL MEC for cause, or a court can do it. Wouldn't it be nice in a show of solidarity if all pilots at both CAL and UAL backed the furloughed pilots that have endured so much? If you haven't already, please visit

https://www.wepay.com/xwuxw9e/donations/loa-25-lawsuit

Good work!

Done, ALPA is not going to fix this, we must.

LOA 25 Paragraph 4
 

ALPA showed its true colors selling out the TWA pilots.

Mike,

Just under 30 years ALPA and disgusted

If this TA passes, our furloughees working at CAL will receive a minimum of 34% and a maximum of 348% pay increase. This is a fact. (assuming we have 1st through 7th year pay furloughees on CAL property). Lawsuits take a long time. I will support the furloughees by supporting this legal battle AND voting yes for the TA.

Sled

Not sure where you are getting your info Sled, but most furloughees that accepted the job at CAL are making between $89 and $99/hour and will go to $110 to $114 per hour depending on which 737 they are flying.

I got my info from published pay charts in our contract. A first year pay furloughee hired and furloughed in 2008 makes $33/hr at CAL. A 7th year pay furloughee makes $86/hr at CAL if he was furloughed off the Bus. The TA rate is $114.78 for the majority of the 737s on property.

Sled

That's exactly right - in fact that is my exact situation.
And I have no interest in this contract whatsoever.

I'm sorry Coto and Sux, I posted bad info. A 1st year pay furloughee will indeed go from $33 to $115 per hour because all furloughees will start at a minimum of 5th year pay in the TA. However, a 7th year pay furloughee will receive 7th year pay, or $121/hr on the 737-800/900. That's a 40% pay raise. Nobody LOSES longevity.

from the FAQs:

Question: Why does it look like I'll be losing longevity when the Furloughed pilot calculations are finished?

Answer: You are mistaken. No furloughed pilot will lose any longevity, and per LOA 25 longevity for pay can only be INCREASED. Furloughed pilots with longevity for pay of less than 4.7 years will be immediately brought up to 4.7 years at Date of Signing. This means that if they are currently flying at Continental, or if they accept an offer to fly at Continental before the Operational Merger Date (OMD) they will use the year 5 column on the pay charts to determine their pay. After the Seniority List Integration, legacy United Furloughed pilots will have a second adjustment to their longevity for pay based on their position on the Integrated Seniority List, and like the first adjustment, a furloughed pilot’s longevity for pay can only be increased in the second step and will never be decreased. Despite rumors to the contrary, there is no provision in our current contract for furloughed pilots to gain longevity for pay for time spent on furlough; the two-step provisions to gain longevity credit for pay for time on furlough are only included in the Tentative Agreement.

FWIW, that's not the underlaying argument here.

The issue is pre-9/11 hires at both UAL and CAL that were previously furloughed. Per the TA all pilots receive full longevity for pay but because of the LOA 25 carveout only for UAL pilots, a CAL pilot receives full longevity credit while a UAL pilot does not. That is the issue here.

<<Nobody LOSES longevity. >>

Furlough time credited for longevity: Some get all, all get some, but many get little.

Aug 2000 hire: furloughed Nov 2001 1 yr, 3 months

Recalled Nov 2006; furlough letter with gold star in lieu of second award, Apr 2009. 2 yrs 5 months

3 yrs 8 months on the property; 8 years, 7 months on furlough.

LOA Bonus Maximus (Bone Us actually) says that 11 months of my 103 months on the street (10.6%) count but the other 89.4% of my life on the outside doesn't count. How can that make sense? Either all furlough time counts for everyone or none of it counts for anyone.

I surmise that this is a setup to craft a rationale to staple us behind every UCAL pilot; Should that happen I then end up furlough fodder and on 5th year pay instead of well further up on the list on 12th year pay should all furlough time count and DOH be used on the ISL (haha), or at least furlough fodder on 12th year pay if I get jammed in the ISL but get full furlough credit for pay purposes.

The pragmatist in me sees that this isn't a make or break issue for many, but it should at least count as a negative when you are weighing the pros and cons of this contract.

Not true. A large majority are guys and gals that have worked previously for United for a period of 2 - 8 months. They were on probation pay and returned on 1st year pay. Then out of the goodness of the CAL and UAL MEC's, they were given longevity credit for those 2-8 months of service so as to avoid working an entire year before moving to second year CAL pay. Now with this TA, they gain another huge windfall-80%-100% credit for time spent on furlough. Happy for them, but how can one group get something that they were not contractually entitled to and another group (99-01hires) get completely left out. The way it is written we will only get credit for time actively working. Also, until SLI, a guy who has 2 months of previous active service will be paid exactly the same as the guy who has 2 furloughs behind him and 7.5 years of active service. Who thinks this stuff up? Please support the pending lawsuit.

Oh, I get the issue. I also know WHY this was done. We can all vote no on the TA because of this carveout, but it will not change. I have sat in IAH and listened to Eric explain the CAL MEC position on LOA 25. They are convinced it would put them at a disadvantage for the SLI. Just like pay banding, it was a must win item for them. That will not change.

How many years of longevity for pay credit does the most senior furloughed CAL guy get? I bet it's not near as many as our 99 hires would receive if they got full credit. Just sayin.

A 40% pay raise will help the sting.

Sled

That is not true. A 7.5 year guy will get 8th year pay. A 2 month guy will get 5th year pay.

Sled

PS. I will support the lawsuit

Sled, you are wrong! Not until SLI and that could potentially be a year from DOS. Here is an example from the MEC update:

Scenario 3: Twice-furloughed pilot now working at CAL. Three years UAL, then another two years UAL, and 1.5 years at CAL.

At Date of Signing, the pilot will be adjusted to 4 years 7 months of longevity for pay purposes at CAL. This longevity will be improved after SLI by combining his UAL and CAL longevity. Additionally, for pay it may be improved by the SLI process as described in Scenario 2 above. This UAL furloughee working at CAL is considered a “CAL pilot” but is pay protected at his UAL pay rate. That pilot will see a potential increase in pay longevity to 5th year TA rates if the new rate is higher than the previous protected rate. After the completion of the ISL a second adjustment of his pay longevity will be computed to account for his time on furlough. This added pay longevity will be capped so as to not exceed the longevity of the CAL pilot just senior to him on the ISL. This pilot will NOT lose any longevity and can only improve upon his 6.5 years of longevity for pay. After ISL this pilot’s full earned longevity (CAL plus UAL) will apply.

And notice they don't even use a good example. We have guys who have over 7 combined years with UAL and time at CAL who will be paid at 4.7 years until SLI. Might not be looked at as a bid deal because it's a pay raise over the old protected United rate. However, it definitely doesn't allow for any further credit for time on furlough. Now, why then, did they generously give credit for time on furlough to the majority of the CAL guys and all of the 07-08 UAL hires? I guess it was just out of the kindness of their hearts.

Thanks, that's how I understood it as well. I was at seven year pay at UAL, with another year at CAL. I will go to the new 5 year pay upon signing and that may increase after SLI, depending on how badly I get screwed, but I will not get 12 year pay like the CAL guys. This will also negatively impact our retro payment as well as vacation for years to come.

Taken another way, other than the 4.7 adjustment, not allowing inactive (furloughed) time to become a factor in ISL determination is not a negative, it is positive, IMHO. Longevity credit indirectly adjusts furlough time. For practical purposes, active time only becomes an ISL consideration, for all pilots.

I would have preferred no adjustment at all prior to ISL. No contract is perfect. ;) The 4.7 adjustment probably captured a few "yes" voters in the sUAL group at CAL.

Contrary to popular belief, negotiations are extremely expensive. It is a 50% plus one game for all parties involved (CAL MEC, UAL MEC, UCH). I'm certain all three would like to be done with this.

I am not wrong. At least from what I have read AND been told by my LEC reps. That example you used has been refuted by other FAQs. Here is the paragraph. It is pretty clear.

4. Pay Longevity Credit for Furloughees
Upon date of signing, any pilot who is, or previously was, furloughed and whose accrued pay longevity is less than that of pilots hired on or before 5/6/08 shall receive additional pay longevity credit for time spent on furlough, but only to the extent that such credit does not provide a pay longevity date prior to 5/7/08.........

Meaning, if you have more longevity AT UAL than 4.7 years, you will not receive additional credit prior to SLI, but you will not lose the longevity that you have. But please, don't take my word for it. Call your reps or go to a Town Hall Meeting.

Sled

From the FAQs:

This paragraph has nothing to do with SLI. It is only about longevity for pay. Neither pilot group offers a credit for furlough time for pay purposes today. This brings all furloughed or previously furloughed pilots with less longevity than 5/7/08 back to that date for pay purposes right away, rather than waiting for the outcome of the seniority list integration. Without paragraph 4, United Furloughees would enter the SLI process with potentially LESS longevity (but nobody will lose ANY longevity actually earned - the only thing the para. 4 credit can do is INCREASE pay longevity).....

The pre-SLI bump is just an interim step. It takes you up to 5/6/08 pay longevity (only up, your longevity is NEVER decreased). Then, at SLI we will add all the furlough longevity we can, but not so much as would take you past the next senior CAL pilot. That might be zero, but in no case would a UA pilot's longevity be reduced, ever.

Sort of....any sUAL pilot with less than 4.7 years active service (longevity) will have his time initially credited for 4.7 years at signing, then additional credit after ISL for those with more inactive furlough time, not to exceed the pay longevity credit of the sCAL pilot immediately his senior, whichever is less.

In other words, pay longevity credit will not become a factor in ISL determination and...a sUAL pilot pay longevity credit will not exceed the next most senior sCAL pilot on the ISL. This applies to "was" or "is" furloughed pilots only.

False. A pilot's longevity will never decrease. A furloughed pilot with more than 4.7 years of active service will not be adjusted down to 4.7 years of credit. They do not lose longevity. Period.

Sled

again, from the FAQs:

The pre-SLI bump is just an interim step. It takes you up to 5/6/08 pay longevity (only up, your longevity is NEVER decreased). Then, at SLI we will add all the furlough longevity we can, but not so much as would take you past the next senior CAL pilot. That might be zero, but in no case would a UA pilot's longevity be reduced, ever.

You are correct (read the edit). However, a sUAL "was" or "is" furloughed pilot will never receive more pay longevity credit than the next most senior sCAL pilot on the ISL, even if his total (active plus inactive) is greater.

His total (active plus inactive) will never be reduced. However, his pay longevity credit may be less, depending upon the pay longevity credit of the next most senior sCAL pilot on the ISL. I think we're saying the same thing.

I never said active + inactive. All I am saying is that IF a pilot has 7 years of active service at UAL, AND he has been furloughed, he will not be adjusted to 4.7 years of longevity for pay at DOS, and he will not receive less than 7 years longevity for pay after SLI, even if the next senior CAL pilot above him has less than 7 years longevity for pay. The after SLI adjustment is to add additonal credit for "time spent on furlough". It cannot take away his active service. His additional credit after SLI adjustment can be 0, but it can't be negative.

Sled

You are correct. Nothing takes away active service credit. Those below 4.7 years are adjusted up to 4.7 years, those over do not lose what active service credit they have.

Thanks Old UCAL dude. I wish I could have said it that plain in the beginning. That is exactly what I am saying. Data and Coto are mistaken. Your active service is your active service. LOA 25 can only increase your years longevity for pay, not decrease it.

Sled

I still don't think you get it. I will not go to seven or eight year pay upon signing. I will go to five year pay even though a CAL guy hired on the same day will go to 12 year pay. Five year pay under the new contract is higher than seven year pay under the United contract so I will get an increase, it just won't be that same as everybody else at the company. I am currently paid at seven years longevity, I will drop down to five years to keep me below the most junior CAL pilot who was hired eight years after me.

Need to ask a question to make sure I understand this.
I am on 6th yr pay, and have 5 yrs and 1 month Active time.
Never Furloughed.

So.. lets say (hypothetically), the UAL Furloughs are put behind the last Active (not the CAL 147) Pilot.
Would there be pilots who are below me (Ex UAL Furloughs) who are paid higher longevity or not?

Me.. I'm fine with that and actually expected that to happen.

Motch

The first question to ask is whether there are now pilots behind you on the sUAL seniority list who have higher active service or are paid at a higher pay for longevity category?

Regardless the answer, no pilot will lose whatever active service credit he or she may have and those below 4.7 years active service credit and "is' or "was" on furlough, will be adjusted to 4.7 on signing.

The next part seems to be where there is a lot of confusion. After ISL, those pilots who were or are on furlough will receive all of their active service credit (min 4.7) and pay for longevity credit for time on furlough, not to exceed the pay for longevity credit of the next most senior sCAL pilot on the new ISL.

Taken another way and more simple, with the exception of the 4.7 upward adjustment on signing, pay for longevity credit for time on furlough is being taken out of ISL deliberations. It is being added back in after ISL determination, not to exceed the pay for longevity credit of the next most senior ex sCAL pilot on the new ISL.

Loa 25 costs me between $6-$7k until SLI. That is straight pay, not including b fund. I am on 8 yr UAL pay 88ph...I go to 5 yr at signing and then to 8 or 9 yr pay after SLI. No one has been able to confirm that my time here on the CAL side will count or not.

I can't confirm either. But active is active. It is a very difficult argument to make otherwise. Active service years (UAL plus CAL) plus pay for longevity credit for time spent on furlough not to exceed the first ex sCAL pilot senior to you on the new ISL. In any case, your active service credit would never be decreased.

Exactly.

I don't know why it's so hard for some to understand this.

Motch, that's the $64k question. There are pilots currently furloughed that had just acheived 8th year pay when furloughed in late 2009. If they can't lose longevity and they are stapled below you the answer is yes.

And the CAL pilot that was hired at CAL the same day you were hired at United receives full longevity credit for his 4 years on furlough.

............anyone know why the UAL MEC is pushing LOA-25 as a good deal? They have sent out two letters (one from Jay H and one from the MEC) both are not even close to a reality check.

...but not as a result of a JCBA prior to an ISL. That is a big difference.

And...you can be absolutely sure that pure active service versus longevity credit and associated points of implementation will be argued at ISL proceedings. Both committees and the three arbitrators aren't stupid.

Um....isn't that exactly what the CAL pilot is receiving at JCBA DOS (which occurs prior to ISL): longevity credit for time on furlough?

Exactly. This is what makes the simple existence of LOA 25 (para 4) so asinine.

Have you ever heard the parents of an ugly newborn say, "he sure is one ugly baby?"

It's 2100 hours on a Friday night and your a 55 year old Bald, Fat guy looking to get laid.

"Go ugly early"

Same deal.

I'm neither fat, bald, 55, or looking for a lbfm. Our furloughees will not be hung out to dry and we did not give $1.2 billion/yr for ten years to end up with this.

It's a good for them be because they took YOUR money and gave it to to the rest of the group.

Ask youself: Where did all that money go and how was it divied up?

You guys are incorrect regarding pay rates assigned at DOS. Just confirmed this evening at an informal Alpa presentation in Houston by Brian Finley. He said that he spoke directly with Jay Heppner and confirmed that "Yes, no matter the longevity of every UAL pilot at CAL, they will all be paid 5th yr FO wages on the new JCBA at Date of Signing." This rate remains in effect until the completion of the Seniority List Integration. So once again, the 08 hire with 2 months of active service will receive the same pay rate as a guy who has 5,6,7,8 years of active service at D.O.S. It's spelled out clearly in the MEC update on 11/20/12. Scenario 3 spells it out: https://crewroom.alpa.org/ual/Deskto...cumentID=49037