SLI work begins
 

or continues, depending on how you view it.


SENIORITY LIST INTEGRATION
With the ratification of the Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA) last Saturday, some pilots’ attention will now turn to the seniority list integration (SLI) process. Your Merger Committee has been working hard and has been very busy on a variety of tasks to date. The most important of these, obviously, is preparing for the upcoming SLI mediation and arbitration proceedings that will occur now that our JCBA has been ratified. When requested, we also have engaged in other MEC business, such as assisting other MEC committees on matters relevant to the merger process. We have also attended local council meetings and MEC meetings, and participated in Town Hall conference calls to communicate with the pilot group. We nonetheless continue to spend the majority of our time preparing for the negotiation, mediation and arbitration phases of the SLI process.

We conduct our day to day work in Washington, D.C. This arrangement allows us easy access to our merger attorneys from Katz & Ranzman, with whom we meet on a regular basis. This preparation phase consists of analyzing the two seniority lists in detail, and reviewing and researching past mergers and their associated seniority integration results. We also analyze other economic data and employment data going back many years. We spend a considerable amount of our time analyzing the various pilot “equities” that each pilot group brings to the merger and each group’s career expectations. This work is dynamic and our case is always evolving. For example, corporate and industry decisions and events that have occurred during this lengthy process have frequently led us to refine our strategy. This preparation is exhaustive and involves mountains of data and research. We will craft and employ strategies that will allow us to seek and achieve a fair and equitable SLI for the Continental pilots.

THE PROCESS – WHAT’S NEXT?
The SLI process, as you may recall, is governed by the protocol agreement executed by the UAL MEC and the CAL MEC on May 17, 2010, shortly after the announcement of the merger. The protocol agreement required that we begin SLI negotiations with the United Merger Committee upon the announcement of a merger, with the goal of a consensual agreement on an ISL between both Merger Committees. This agreement further provides that we will initiate the mediation/arbitration phases (selection of mediator and arbitrators and the actual proceedings, etc.) only when the two MECs have approved a tentative agreement (TA) for the JCBA, and that we will begin the actual arbitration proceedings only when we have a fully ratified JCBA.

There are several dates/timelines that the protocol agreement lays out for the SLI process. The timelines are based on the date of the JCBA TA, which was Nov. 12, 2012.

TA + 30 days (12/12/12): Select Mediator and 3 Arbitrators
TA + 100 days (2/20/13): Mediator Joins Negotiations
TA + 140 days (4/1/13): Arbitration Becomes Mandatory

The two Merger Committees are currently in the negotiations phase. In fact, we are scheduled to meet Jan. 8-9, 2013. If we don’t reach agreement on an ISL with the United Merger Committee by Feb. 20, 2013, we will initiate formal mediation proceedings, with the jointly selected mediator joining the two Merger Committees in the SLI negotiations. If we don’t reach agreement while utilizing the mediation process by April 1, 2013, the arbitration will become mandatory. That said, however, nothing in the protocol agreement prohibits both Merger Committees from initiating mediation and, if necessary, arbitration, prior to those dates.

Many pilots have asked us when we expect the process to be fully completed. Unfortunately, while there is a defined date for when certain aspects of the process must begin, it was not possible to establish a deadline for when the process must conclude. However, it is safe to say that the entire SLI process should reasonably be expected to conclude within six months of the date that the JCBA was ratified, which was Dec. 15, 2012.

Please remember that while virtually all of what we do in preparation for the negotiations, mediation and arbitration is confidential, the actual arbitration proceedings will be held in open session and all pilots will be invited to attend. Additionally, once the SLI is achieved, we will be briefing the pilot group on the SLI agreement or arbitrator’s award, and providing a summation of our work in a town hall format.

Further, we have a Q&A document on our Merger Committee web page on the CAL MEC website. This document has some common questions and answers that we believe may prove useful to you for this upcoming process.

If you have a question, comment or concern about the SLI process, please write directly to your entire Merger Committee at [email protected]. We will respond as soon as possible.


CAL MEC Merger Committee


Air Line Pilots Association, International
Air Line Pilots Association, International

Here is a glimpse of the current negotiating situation.

http://i55.tinypic.com/219oyo1.png

What do most pilots want? Relative seniority? DOH?

If you are on the CAL side you want relative seniority because CAL has merged with an airline that has far more widebody aircraft. So say you are at 75% from the top and 25% from the bottom. You are at an airline with 10% or less of your aircraft are widebodies. Now you merge with UAL where 35% of the aircraft are widebodies, and the result is the overall airline is 23% widebody (more than TWICE as much) and you are still 75% overall, you just got a huge bump in career expectations.

UAL guys probably ok with DOH because they have 6400+ pilots who were hired in the 1990's or before and are still active, and a bunch more pilots on furlough as well.

Neither of these will happen, but both will be looked at, because current status and longevity both play a part in them.

So its going to be weird, but guys are going to complain. There will be some United guys who don't get 10 years as a widebody CAP (maybe 7 or 8), because their new airline has a ton of guys who got put ahead of them, and maybe they get to hold narrowbody Cap a bit sooner instead. Conversely some CAL guy takes an extra year or two to get to 737 CAP (or lineholder, etc) but then at the end of his career ends up a 747 Cap or flies a widebody that he may have never flown or held a line on etc.

But one truth of this is that we can't change our ages, and we can't change the airplanes we have. So what we have is what we have, and there has to be a way for it to be fair for everyone and DOH and relative seniority don't really work.

I don't know enough about the "when and how many" CAL pilots were hired to know which is best. For the bottom 1/3 of both, which is most of the posters on this forum, DOH is better for UAL, and relative is better for CAL. But that may not be the case for the upper 2/3's of each list. I don't know.

I do know DOH would come up with a "stupid" list, which is to say there would be "clumps" of pilots from one, followed by clumps from the other. From what some have said the top 1000 pilots at CAL would be at the top. Followed by 1100 at UAL as strikebreakers. UAL hired more from 95-2001 than probably the entire CAL list.

I don't know the makeup of the CAL list, plus I have an agenda. I would prefer neutrals do the dirty work, and hopefully it turns out fair for as many as possible.

Funniest thing I've read today! :D

Well it's impossible for an SLI to please 10,000+ pilots. Someone started a Delta SLI thread posting how their integration went. It seems for the most part it was a pretty smooth intergration. Would most of you favor something similar?

It all depends if you are talking to a DAL or NWA pilot. ;)

"The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters."

At least ten characters....

1. Manny
2. Moe
3. Jack
4. Curly
5. Moe
6. Larry
7. JayH
8. JayP
9. El Heffe
10. Fred
11. Pete
12. The capt who assured me we were getting FULL retro,
13. The capt who assured me we were getting FULL retro AND equity,
15. The captains who were certain that the "rumored" TA leaks were bogus (funny how the were amazingly accurate),
14. The captains who wanted to wait till airborne to write up known deficiencies...what FOM?
15. The captains who popped the parking brake early to get the on time...what SOP?
16. The captains who wanted to leave hubs with with serious mechanical deficiencies MEL'd knowing that no one at the other end would want to fly the junk they carried,
17. The captains who didn't want to risk having to explain legitimate late departures to the CP,
18. Jeffrey Lebowski
19. Walter Sobchak
20. Donnie Kerabotsos
21. Brandt
22. Jackie Treehorn
23. Karl Hungus
24. Maude Lebowski
25. Knox Harrington
26. Jesus Quintana
27. Plankton
28. Peter Griffin
29. Quagmire
30. Anton Chigurh
31. Sir Lancelot
32. Arthur Pewty
33. The Knights who said 'Ni!'
34. Major Kong
35. Hollis P. Wood
36. Taggart

I agree. DOH would be stupid.

But relative seniority would also be stupid as a guy with 14 years of active time at an airline with lots of widebodies and him never having been furloughed would be equal to a guy with 2 years of time at the other airline that has tons of 737s'.

So they will figure something out and I think its going to be just fine.....

Sure, but NWA and DAL both had more widebody aircraft than CAL and both had less than UAL, so they were "closer" airlines to begin with.

And CAL narrow bodies paid more the UAL wide bodies. So you want the money or look cool or in your airplane? Part of career expectations.

Well said. I don't give a good goose fart what I'm flying as long as I get paid well and have a good quality of life. The "we have more widebodies" argument never made much sense to me, especially given that - as a 737 FO at Cal - I was making more than UAL widebody FOs and still getting 18 days off a month.

No they didn't. Not even close.

Where will the UAL furloughs end up on the list?

12 year pay from prior to JCBA:

UAL 767 CA: $160.53
CAL 737-800 CA: $169.33

UAL 777/747 CA: $191.79
CAL 777/767 CA: $193.15


UAL 767 FO: $109.64
CAL 737-800 FO: $115.60

UAL 777/747 FO: $131.00
CAL 777/767 FO: $131.80

I think this is what they are referring to. Do you have differing information?

Thats the $64k question and nobody knows with the new policy. CAL will scream "staple" and UAL will scream "longevity" and the arbitrators will sort it out. The only thing that is known is that they will be senior to any new hires.

Note that CAL also had pilots on furlough when the merger was announced that are in the same boat if the snapshot is merger announcement (or closing) in 2010.

Nope. That looks right. Here is some more...(on MAD)
UAL 777/747..............78
UAL 767....................35
CAL 777/767..............48

They also might consider what the career expectations (I.e. career earnings) are of one junior pilot who is an FO and will be an FO for many years who eventually makes widebody captain when he's 64, vice another junior pilot who is a 737 captain at 35 and remains a 737 captain or better for the next 30 years. The mere existence of more larger planes at one airline doesn't necessarily mean career expectations are better.

Yep and Widebody CAP pays more at UAL than narrowbody at CAL.

So the previous statement is REFUTED.

C'mon, dude. You're not supposed to argue using facts and well-reasoned logic! You're supposed to repeat the talking points.

"Cal was going bankrupt."
"United bought Cal."
"United parked the 737s in anticipation of the merger...er acquisition."
"United has more widebodies, and being a widebody pilot is the only measure of career success, regardless of pay or qol."

Don't deviate from the script! (Ok... sarcasm off)

Disclaimer: please don't take offense if this is genuinely what you believe. I just hear these "talking points" so often I start to feel like I'm listening to a White House press briefing.

Yeah, there's never been any "talking points" spewed from any CAL pilots on ths forum.

There you have it. According to the above statement the 767 is no longer considered a widebody so we can remove that argument from SLI consideration, right?? :rolleyes:

Adam,
I've considered this and cannot understand how any furloughees could expect to be anywhere but the bottom of the list (stapled below all active pilots). This is not meant maliciously or without respect. I was furloughed from my last airline and understand the hardships that it means. However, furlough means laid off. How could a person who is not employed with United REASONABLY expect to be placed above a person that is currently employed? We could argue career expectations, number of wide bodies, financial health of both companies, etc. all day. The bottom line is a furloughed pilots is no different than Joe Pilot from Express. They both are NOT employed by United.

Regardless, there is nothing that you or I or anyone else could argue on this forum that would alter the outcome of the SLI. It simply doesn't make any sense to me that the answer to your question is not obvious. Good luck and hopefully in the end we are all Captains a lot sooner than we all expected!

According to the UAL captain who was one of the pilot neutrals for the AAA/AWA arbitration, pilots who were furloughed at the time the merger was announced should go to the bottom of the combined list, with no credit for longevity.

Yeah.....then ALPA merger policy was CHANGED!

They will get credit for their longevity.

Just because a guy has been furloughed doesn't mean that they don't have good career expectations going forward. We have a massive amount of retirements coming, and some of these folks are looking at being senior widebody captains eventually (some very senior).

Don't forget that ALPA lost AAA/AWA due to the crappy old SLI policy. The policy has been changed and the arbitrator MUST adhere to it. Past SLI arguments are useless.

It's going to be a tough road for the furloughees in SLI, but they do have some good arguments to help them avoid being stapled.

And what did the CAL pilot neutral say? :rolleyes:

Are you saying it is reasonable to expect someone not employed by United to displace or jump ahead of a current United employee? How can someone not employed with a company expect to have any expectations with that company, much less better expectations than a person currently employed with that company?

Again, as rough as it may sound, furloughs are FORMER employees of United and have as much career expectations as Joe Pilot at Express whose Dad is a chief pilot.

Q&A from July 2010
 

YOU’VE GOT QUESTIONS, WE’VE GOT ANSWERS
We’ve sent a team around the system recently to gather some of your questions regarding the seniority integration process. Below are some of the answers to those questions to help better explain the integration process.

Q: When will the list be done?

A: As of this writing, we have completed the final stages of the verification process. We have exchanged the certified seniority lists with the UAL Merger Committee, and the next step is to enter direct negotiations with the UAL Merger Committee. That will occur near the time you receive this newsletter. If we are unable to reach agreement, we will enlist the services of a mediator. If mediation is unsuccessful, we will enter arbitration. Arbitration will not begin until the JCBA is ratified. You should understand that MEC and membership ratification are not part of this process.

Q: Why are we waiting for a ratified JCBA prior to entering arbitration?

A: Simply put, waiting for a ratified JCBA prior to entering arbitration helps the joint pilot group obtain the best possible contract because management needs an integrated seniority list (ISL) prior to realizing maximum financial and operational synergies from the merger.

Q: Can a more senior United pilot bump me out of my captain seat after the integration?

A: We don’t envision this scenario because virtually all seniority integrations have included a “no bump, no flush” clause. Just as in a normal system bid, the “no bump” provision prevents a pilot from being displaced by a more senior pilot. For example, the most senior pilot on the list (who is not currently based in CLE) decides that he wants to fly as a captain on a B-737 out of CLE. If no vacancy exists for CLE B-737 captains, then that pilot cannot be awarded that position and must wait for a vacancy to be awarded that seat. The “no flush” provision maintains the initial status quo and prevents massive system-wide displacements as a result of the merger.

Q: I’m a senior F/O. Should I bid captain before the merger?

A: This goes back to the old adage of “bid what you want, not what you don’t want.” While we have occasionally made fun of that phrase, it’s good advice here. Remember, what we are doing is merging numbers on the seniority lists, NOT the positions that you are currently flying in. You use your system seniority to bid the flying position you want. You will not be disadvantaged in an integration because you chose to remain a senior first officer as opposed to bidding for a junior captain spot. In summary, a Continental pilot who is junior to you before the merger will still be junior to you after the merger.

What happens to all of the data that you’re collecting?

First, it’s a requirement of ALPA Merger and Fragmentation Policy and the joint Protocol Agreement (between the CAL and UAL MECs) to collect and verify very specific employment data. Next, the data provides the opportunity to correct a few minor errors that have persisted on each of our lists for years, such as an incorrect birthday. The data will then be used in an aggregate manner during the seniority list integration process to negotiate the most fair and equitable list possible.

How are the lists going to be integrated?

It is simply impossible to predict the outcome and it would be irresponsible of us to even try. Multiple integration methodologies are possible and we will analyze all of them. It is our mandate to defend every single Continental pilot’s seniority rights from the most senior pilot to the most junior pilot on our seniority list. Let’s be clear: there will be no re-ordering of Continental seniority list as a result of this data collection and verification.

It would be unfair to place a furlough above an active employee.

Fairs' got nuthin to do with it.

A "fair" is where you get cotton candy.

Many of those furloughees have active service under their belts, and that is going to be taken into account. I would be shocked to see furloughees stapled to the bottom. Longevity HAS to be taken into account.

Plus we have a new merger policy, so this ISL should set some new precedents.

CAL had 24 767 aircraft. UAL had 32.

That will be the second tranche of seniority integration, like it was at DAL/NWA probably. So maybe 3 UAL pilots for 2 UAL pilots.

It really doesn't matter. When the list is done everyone will still be able to hold the same thing and their relative career expectations and longevity will be used. No one will be bumped out of their seats because of the other pilot group and there will ultimately be more opportunities for where to live and where to fly for everyone.

It would be unfair to put a guy hired in 2008 in front of a guy hired in 1999. :p

SO we should see who was hired at Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff, TWA,
and get their DOH, and merge them first !!

If you're out of a job when the merger happens, you should go to the bottom, and be happy you weren't out of a job forever. As for longevity, 10+ years sitting at the bottom, holding NB FO does not equal 5 years of steady progression and ability to hold NB CA. Failing to take that into account results in a big windfall for the 1st guy,(which is what he's been hoping for all along)

But thats just my opinion, I could be wrong:p

As you can see I'm a Delta guy and don't have a dog in this hunt. What I will tell you from experience is that once it goes to arbitration all bets are off. Here are some short shots from the Delta/NWA merger:

1. It didn't matter that the majority of Delta aircraft paid more than NWA they just broke it down as widebody and narrowbody.

2. The did a stovepipe (which means they ordered the seniority list as to what you could actually hold so it didn't matter what seat you were actually in)

3. They merged the two lists (within a percent or 2 depending on where you sat on the list) so that ended up with about your same relative seniority.

4. They didn't care if you had a bunch of dinosaur aircraft that were approaching the end of their cycle life or if your seniority list had a huge number of guys retire early.

So basically they just looked at what type of seats you brought to the dance and merged them via a ratio by your size. We didn't have any furloughee's, however if we had they wouldn't have had a seat to merge into the list and as such would have been on the bottom.

The arbitrators didn't care about your date of hire as we had new hires (07) merged with 01 hires that had been furloughed.

Just remember you are now along for the ride since you signed off on the joint contract.

+1. Thank you!
There will still be those around here that will insist on having a heart attack over something that they nor their opinions will have anything influence over SLI.

Both Delta & NWA had pilots who ended up senior to pilots whom were hired at their respective airline first. IOW, they ended up junior to guys hired after them.

That's likely up to the arbitrator(s). Good luck defining "fair" with 12,000+ pilots.