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-   United (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/united/)
-   -   Future Vacancy Bids (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/united/72626-future-vacancy-bids.html)

LCAL dude 01-31-2013 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by Coto Pilot (Post 1342660)
Age has everything to do with it. At 51 I looked at the CAL list last year and had to go something 150 numbers to find someone older than me and then another 150 to find another. I looked at the bottom of the CAL list yesterday now that it is full of United furloughees and I was slightly over the median age. If you place a younger pilot hired after an older one ahead of the older one, the older pilot will never advance to where he would have(career expectation). If on the other hand you place the older pilot hired before the younger one ahead of the younger one then the older pilot will still end up where he would have and the younger one will end up where he would have. The younger pilots career may be delayed, but that is made up for by the fact that he will have much greater opportunities to advance to a wide body captain as United has two and a half times the number.
Under that logic an older pilot hired in the class after a younger one should be moved up ahead of them in seniority. I've got a lot of pilots ahead of me that are younger and will have a longer career than me. Bummer, but that's the way it is.

SpecialTracking 01-31-2013 04:23 AM
Originally Posted by LCAL dude (Post 1343074)
Bummer, but that's the way it is.
Regrettably, your words of wisdom can be applied to both sides of the argument. Similar to a story that a sUAL pilot told me about a sCAL omc who said, in cruise, "the UAL pilots will just have to get used to it."

Now that, is persuasion.

SpecialTracking 01-31-2013 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by LCAL dude (Post 1343074)
Under that logic an older pilot hired in the class after a younger one should be moved up ahead of them in seniority. I've got a lot of pilots ahead of me that are younger and will have a longer career than me.
There again, your logic does not apply. Coto is discussing a SLI, while you are referring to the placement of new hires on a seniority list which is governed by the contract.

Coto Pilot 01-31-2013 05:15 AM
Many airlines made the oldest person in a new hire class the most senior for this very reason.

beeker 01-31-2013 05:36 AM
Originally Posted by Coto Pilot (Post 1342660)
Age has everything to do with it. At 51 I looked at the CAL list last year and had to go something 150 numbers to find someone older than me and then another 150 to find another. I looked at the bottom of the CAL list yesterday now that it is full of United furloughees and I was slightly over the median age. If you place a younger pilot hired after an older one ahead of the older one, the older pilot will never advance to where he would have(career expectation). If on the other hand you place the older pilot hired before the younger one ahead of the younger one then the older pilot will still end up where he would have and the younger one will end up where he would have. The younger pilots career may be delayed, but that is made up for by the fact that he will have much greater opportunities to advance to a wide body captain as United has two and a half times the number.
With that arguement lets just chuck out both the sUAL and sCAL list and create a new combined list bases on age. Oldest person the most senior and youngest the most junior with coin flips settling issues with people having the same birthday. Of course if more then two people have the same birthday maybe dice could be used instead.

SpecialTracking 01-31-2013 06:52 AM
Originally Posted by beeker (Post 1343154)
With that arguement lets just chuck out both the sUAL and sCAL list and create a new combined list bases on age. Oldest person the most senior and youngest the most junior with coin flips settling issues with people having the same birthday. Of course if more then two people have the same birthday maybe dice could be used instead.
I fully understand the CAL pilot's fear of the use of longevity in any SLI. I understand why most of you cling to one position, relative seniority. I would like to think that most, if not all of the UAL pilots understand. The UAL pilots witnessed the DOH chants during the 2000 USAir merger attempt.

I'm not asking you to agree ;), but from the responses I have read on the CAL side, some don't make an attempt to understand. We are not going to get everything we want, but at least understanding the other side might take some of the sting out of the sli award.

XHooker 01-31-2013 07:26 AM
Originally Posted by beeker (Post 1343154)
With that arguement lets just chuck out both the sUAL and sCAL list and create a new combined list bases on age. Oldest person the most senior and youngest the most junior...
I know you're being sarcastic and it'd be a direct violation of ALPA merger policy, but I've heard worse ideas. We all started flying about the same time and (for now) we know the date at which our career must end.

XHooker 01-31-2013 07:28 AM
Originally Posted by Coto Pilot (Post 1343144)
Many airlines made the oldest person in a new hire class the most senior for this very reason.
Ironically, not United.

XHooker 01-31-2013 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by Coto Pilot (Post 1342660)
Age has everything to do with it. At 51 I looked at the CAL list last year and had to go something 150 numbers to find someone older than me and then another 150 to find another.
The average age of a pilot in from CAL new hire class 15 years ago is probably older than that of a UAL class at the same time. Generalizing age across an entire pilot group is usually impossible.

Dave Fitzgerald 01-31-2013 07:53 AM
UAL used to have the oldest person in a class be the most senior, then someone sued, and "Age discrimination" and EEOC hiring mandates happened.

So, the last 4 of your social was used to introduce randomness.


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