CAL v. UAL Rants, thread drift overflow
 

You can blame j.pierce for this and the games he played during contract negotiations but what the heck, you'll get a little more seniority.

Not only pierce but heppner as well! They both sold us this pos contract with the lousy scope that allows 90 seaters configured as 76 seaters to be flown by non-seniority list pilots.

How did you Vote?

There is much about that statement I agree with, but just a correction:

The first (30) EMB175s announced a few weeks ago are being bought by United. These (40) planes are being bought by Skywest, as part of a 100 aircraft order with 100 options.

SkyWest, Inc. Announces Agreement With Embraer For 100 Firm And 100 Options E175 Regional Jets - Yahoo! Finance

I just completed a trip where we were supposed to have "contractually compliant crew meals" on board all but one of our flights, per the meal matrix posted on the Flight Operations website. Not one meal was boarded this trip and the caterers didn't have a clue what we were talking about. That's fine. I just ended up expensing a nice reasonable dinner of MY choosing on each overnight. Sorry for the drift....

Wow nice ewr you really showed them this time, lol. There probably discussing this over at headquarters right now.

Doesn't matter how anybody voted on this contract. It was backloaded by pierce and company to get a no vote to delay implementation and promote the big seniority grab. It backfired on him and you see the results with the fake seniority lists and other SLI claims/lies. The cal guys asked for it - now live with it.

Dude. Give your blame game a break and move ahead with the issues at hand. When will you take responsibility or is it easier to always blame the other guy. Pierce is only one vote, and as I recall takes more than 1 vote ( MEC and pilot groups) to make this happen. Some voted this, it's done...now the " new" United will have to deal with it..

I voted for the agreement. Here is why:

CAL ALPA really brought not too much to the table, so instead of using real leverage, Pierce manufactured leverage with brinkmanship. CAL JCBA negotiations were all about the ISL, because, ..... CAL really brought not too much to the table. The CAL pilots traded unity for a few pieces of silver.... They were happy with the status quo of no JCBA for the upgrades, regardless of where it was going to put them in a couple of years. For the betterment of all of us, we needed to get the CBA done and the ISL done, so the company can quit playing us against each other.... That had value to me.

There was no better deal. No one, could present a compelling argument to vote No with the prospects of a better deal. Even to this date, on this forum, no one can provide this argument. There is no precedence. The APA BK agreement doesn't come close.

The political capital collected by the UAL Leg Affairs on CapHill was used up. The political players and the NMB believed this was the best deal. Compared to the rest of the economy, if we voted this down, we'd be seen as whiny prima donnas. In this anti labor, pro capital economy, this is a good deal.

The NO voters are identity driven. They want to be known as better than Delta and equal in status as Smisek.... this JCBA didn't match that. If this was your belief position, then you readily identified with the vagueness and ambiguity of the NO voters. Unable to definitively discuss the determination of the NO vote, yet, compelled nonetheless to vote NO. But that wasn't the lens used by the yes voters. The yes voters pragmatically looked at the data... used a business deal logic and voted.

It's called negotiations for a reason. That is why we didn't get everything what we wanted. And why the company didn't get all they wanted....

Despite the NO ego's, and for their betterment, the JCBA passes. What has happened is done. We own it, let's move on... get the ISL done, put on the cheesy uniform and proceed.

This all happened well before it got to a MEC/membership vote. You guys really don't understand the direction pierce took you has caused more harm to the combined pilot group going forward than anything we as a group could have voted on. Put you head back in the the sand.

Are you for real? You really believe what you just wrote?

Absolutely !

Congrats snarge enjoy your contract, let us know what scares you next time around, I am sure the company will find something.

Thanks for the clarification. It shows they can move quickly on what they choose. Put in a claim for a taxi in mid March, got it paid this week. Online expense reporting with uploading of receipts could easily be available to us because it already exists on Flying Together. It's called uSource and is how everyone else in the company files expense reports--except pilots. It is one stop for filing, uploading, tracking, and reimbursement. The logon info is the same as the Flying Together logon. All they have to do is authorize us to use it. But here we are filling out forms, printing documents of trip IDs and meal charts, with no way to know if it's progressing to approval or lost on the way. It's similar to mail-in rebates. Some won't do it due to forgetfulness or laziness, some don't track it so if it's lost you won't know. It's a business maxim that when you rope-a-dope the process you decrease the payout.

uSource: https://flyingtogether.ual.com/web/c...ID=Procurement

How about letting 1437 of your "brothers" get hit a third time by the bus ala LOA 25. That should have been enough for a "HELL NO" vote.

That's okay, though. You got yours. Go ahead and pull up the ladder. You're fine.

SCR

A majority of the 1437 I spoke to were in favor of the agreement, despite LOA25.... In addition, there aren't enough active line pilots who give a damn to vote no, for the 1437... meaning... it didn't matter....

next?

I voted no for many reasons bottom line is I gave up too much and this contract failed to compensate me for all my sacrifices. I looked st the data and implementation dates and found the agreement unacceptable. I never told or tried to convince others how to vote and ignored the union fear tactics.

Your management, your union, your SCOPE CLAUSE, all irreverent it was all CAL's fault. It's all a great conspiracy started back in 2000.

Is it too hot outside? That was also CAL's fault.

The JCBA had many flaws... however, were you going to get a better deal..... ?? That is the bottom line. It doesn't matter if your ego/identity feels justly compensated. In the corporate world, you are free to quit to allow fresh non jaded new hires to take your place with positive attitudes and 'just happy to have a job' mentalities....

What you need to reconcile, was, were you going to get a better deal? The money you left on the table... were you going to get what you justly deserved for your sacrifices and make up for the money left on the table.... this is what you can not answer... making your NO vote irresponsible because while admirable, was going to yield less money in the long run for your sacrifices. Just the like the USAPA guys... they've been losing money for years.....

Well Snarge, at least you have the guts to admit you voted Yes.

But my post was directed at Staller (I'm assuming a Legacy United Pilot) who stated that Jay Pierce, and only he.. is responsible for the fact that we will now be seeing 70 new Large RJ's on property starting next year.

Not Hep, Not ALPA National, not the YES Voters.. one individual, Jay Pierce.

I Voted NO for numerous reasons.. one of them including SCOPE.
These new RJ's are coming without any corressponding New Small NarrowBody Aircraft (no matter what Trip7 states..).

Yes, at some point this New SCOPE may butt against restrictions that might help us.. but in the near term, and as far as I can see.. this does nothing for the combined Pilot Group.

Come Aug/Sept we can try and put the SLI behind us and get ready for the next battle. Who runs the union and what actually becomes of our union.

No matter what I do, I see the next 3-5 years as being one struggle and battle after the next. All we can do if our jobs, and enforce our contract.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled *****fest~

Always
Motch

PS> Latest rumors at ground school is that the IT implementation is still way behind, and that we're still looking at separate (but equal.. lol!) ops going into the latter part of 2014!
That and the rumor of the SFO 73 base opining up sometime after SLI~

You cal guys got everything from this contract - what did UAL pilots get that wasn't already theirs. Look you got APC225 complaining about not getting his crew meal - progress huh!

So how many of those did you talk to? Plenty of active line pilots that gave a damn about the 1437 and voted no. Geez do you work for ual?

Must be nice having someone do your dirty work. Keep in mind that your group will always be tainted by his actions.

^
Whatever dude..
You're a waste of bandwidth.

Motch

Guts? Your framed comment suggests that the YES voters are cowards, or at least not willing to openly discuss the vote. Whereas, I would suggest that you didn't have the guts to vote YES. You knew the JCBA would probably pass, so you got to play the hard core NO voter and now, you get to play the "I told you so" and "I had courage".....

Open forum and discussion....

The reason why the SFO/WAS 737 base has not opened up already is because (supposedly) the UAL MC told UCH if you do that prior to SLI, the UAL pilots will be enraged over the perception/reality that the CAL guys have surely benefited much more in this merger....

Yet, you and the NO voters are missing a fundamental point...

Sure you've got reasons to vote NO.... and you've listed them in this post... and I share many of them... of course I wanted the JCBA to be better... but despite your shared eloquent and logical reasons for voting NO, you weren't going to get better; scope, pay, retro, etc... it wasn't going to happen. Why? because you have no compelling reasons. You might be able to convince yourself, but the JNC, two MECs and 67% thought differently... yet the 33% are still the smart guys?


UCH, like USAIR was going advantage the the lower pay cost and continue to operate. After about a year, enough NO voters would be worn down and tired, ready for a deal and with a net gain of zero.. it would have passed... that is if U-ALPA and C-ALPA didn't morally collapse into Lord of the Flies....

That's ok - I don't have that monkey on my back.

Staller, I didn't realize how much you guys thought Jay P was "Out Negotiating" your side! Don't worry this will soon be all over, and Jay P will be able to help you out in all your Neg. needs!!;)

Snarge.. before this gets out of hand- I will PM you my number if you want to talk.
As far as I'm concerned, the Vote is over. Yet one of your own UAL Pilots came on here and threw JP out as the reason this 40 seat Large RJ order is happening. My reply was simple. How did you vote?

If anyone voted YES and then *****es about the crap that is happening, well.. what did they expect.

I was taught a valuable lesson early on in life. You get nothing without working hard for it. And sometimes, you have to fight for it. And sometimes Life is Unfair.

In my opinion, both unions were dysfunctional from the start.. and yet we garnered a 99% Strike Vote. And then we did nothing with it.

But it's over.

As far as the SFO Base.. if the reason was the "UAL Pilots will be enraged".. ok, whatever. In my experience, management doesn't seem to care about workers being "enraged". They care about the bottom line.
When "enraged" equals a Strike or something else that costs us money, then the company will Stop and take notice.
But a threat of "being enraged"?!

When all is said and done, I think you will see two major hubs on the West Coast, and two on the East Coast. I expect they will have 73's everywhere.. as it will end up being our greatest fleet.
The only question now is when? The company has a JCBA.. so they can start implementing new bases at their pleasure (my opinion).

If they do a SFO Base prior to the SLI and it's only offered to the CAL Pilots (based on our current CBA).. sorry.
But once we have the SLI, and that base continues to grow, there will be openings for both sides.

Oh, and unless the SFO losses aircraft/staffing due to a 737 base, it's not that big of an issue in the short term.

Again, word on the rumor mill is that the SFO Base is waiting for SLI. Though, on the LCAL Side, we require (per our old CBA) another bid (even if it turns out to be a bid per the new CBA) sometime in the next three months. That is prior to SLI.

Motch

pierce didn't out negotiate anybody - he sold out your group on day one and tried to sell ours out - he lost and you have a POS contract that allows for the RJ's that will replace your 737's. j.pierce will likely end up with Jeff and his management team. He'll have no place on the combined MEC - not even as an advisor. Kind of like prater's fall from grace, pierce will find his bottom.

Not trying to state the obvious but the crew meals issue is simple - get off airplane and get something to eat. If the flight is delayed it will get attention and resolution eventually. Crew rest facilities - don't leave the gate until it's resolved - flight delays will get attention. Doesn't matter how you voted on the contract it's here and it's your responsibility to enforce it.

Our old management will do what it the did from 2000 to 2005 when they built up to use 274 35/50-seat Embraers--stop hiring and shrink with retirements resulting in seniority stagnation for most.

Not getting paid in timely fashion, lack of access to the existing process to get paid in a timely fashion, and the general delay-as-management-tool philosophy.

"I was taught a valuable lesson early on in life. You get nothing without working hard for it. And sometimes, you have to fight for it. And sometimes Life is Unfair.
"

You know I have noticed over the years (at least 20 more than horrid) that people who have "got theirs" make statements like this all too often.

Now with that aside, most of the accompanying info also on that post concerning SFOFO are mostly based on ignorance and speculation.

UAL could bid a B737 base for the sUAL pilots right now. Problems? Training for one and how the base will integrate after the ISL is another. Will sCAL get another bid before the ISL? I believe the contractual answer is no. But, rather than hear from me or the previous poster with idle uninformed speculation it would be worthwhile would check with your local reps (sUAL and sCAL) to see what they have to say.

I'm sure glad only a few have worked hard for anything and blame the rest of us for being slackers.

;(

The other Jay tried to explain this to your jay but he insisted on trying to manipulate the contract to improve cal SLI. This should have been a much stronger contract as related to scope but both committees spent much time and arbitrator time trying to get past SLI issues pierce insisted on. The cal pilots got a lot from this contract and those portions that can enforced should be enforced as if we all voted for it.

This was not made as a slight but more to indicate that this contract got you a contractual right to a crew meal. Now it's a matter of enforcing the contract so you don't have to seek self-help.

First of all RegularGuy, I don't know your background and you don't know mine (probably).
But there are alot of guys on here who do. I'm prior Enlisted, went to College on my own dime, took out the loan to get my ratings.
I also CFI'd, Chartered and did the Regional thing while still serving in the Guard.

I earned my position.

I'm sorry to hear what happened to your (and the UAL Pilots) careers. It Sucks. Truly does. Same as it sucks for the TWA guys, the PanAm guys, the Eastern guys.. etc.

I for one don't believe our list is gonna fly. Guys from my squadron who have never been furloughed, (97 hires) should not be junior to me. My opinion.
Same time.. guys who have been furloughed, who have NOT been recalled back to LUAL, who would NOT have been recalled for years.. should NOT be senior to any working pilot at CAL.
(and I'm specifically talking about the InVol Furloughs here.)
Your list is just as wrong there...

Do I get ****ed if the neighbor hits the Lotto and I don't. Nope. It's Life. Do I act all obnoxious if my house survives a natural disaster and the neighbors don't.. Nope. It's Life.

Life isn't fair sometimes. You do the best you can and move forward. I've stated repeatedly, I voted NO and that's that. However, I was not the one who brought it up.. a UAL Pilot did. I therefore asked him how he voted.

Once we have an SLI, I'll live with it. Hopefully I'm not too screwed. Either way, I'll adjust my future plans.

As far as a next bid.. it was stated by our MEC at my last council meeting, and on the last Town Hall Conference Call that- The Continental way of system bids are probably over.. even though, contractually we would probably need to have another bid come Aug/Sept.
That being said, any future bid is suppose to follow the new JCBA method. Therein lies the potential problem.

We are still operating in separate systems. UAL bidding and flying their equipment, CAL doing the same.
If the rumors of IT issues are true, and that even after a SLI there will still be two separate systems.. then what?!
Come 1 Sept and we have a list. Great.
On the 6th of Sept when we PBS Bid, it will still be (most likely) separate bids..
Until the IT side gets done, even with the List, there are still major issues to be resolved.

If the SFO base bid does open up around the SLI time.. the base itself probably won't open till sometime next year. More than enough time to make all the necessary adjustments.

But to say that I "got mine" and therefore don't care about my fellow pilots is untrue.
You might not like my opinion.. but so what. From the 7000 or so UAL Pilots out there, there are only a handful I don't really like. And the majority are those who I haven't even met. Just know through the numerous Forums.
But I'll still be willing to sit down and have a beer with them. But the reality is, most likely, I won't be able to change their minds about all this crap.. and they won't be able to change mine either.

It is what it is.

Motch

PS> Considering that I'm 46.. guess that makes you "at least" 66?!

PPS> Please explain to me how LUAL bids a 737 SFO base.. when you have no aircraft per the TPA to fill it? nor do you have a training program.. and where do you pull the pilots from without it affecting the rest of your fleet?

Horrido

"I earned my position."

Yeah you fit in nicely and are superior to so many other pilots here from both sides.

Dude, everyone I know (with the exception of some hired in 1985) "earned" their stripes so quit puffing your opinions and chest like you have something special going on.

Now I do apologize about the age, I only have a bit more than a decade over you, it's just your boisterous comments reminded me of so many 30 somethings who also "earned" it.

Now as far as the 737s goes, in case you haven't read it there are a certain amount already slated for the sUAL side with deliveries to begin in time for a base to be bid on the sUAL side this fall. Additionally there are 757-200s being parked and scheduled to be parked. Yes there's no training program set up yet, although the issue is being worked on while we rant.

I'm glad your a hero because I just fly jets from points A to B and probably haven't earned much else let alone deserve anything more in life.

As far as your opinion about the "list" goes neither you nor I have any say in it except for our respective MECs to decide they don't like it and do a USAir. Now won't that be a career builder for many.

Maybe that is why you voted no... the JCBA didn't meet your expectations to your perceived 'earned position'.....

Rather, you were born into a certain status, with given opportunities that you took advantage of...... Just like the rest of us....

Not sure how the CAL guys manufacture expectations from a FAR work rule CBA to Delta+1.... get something close enough, then scoff at it, like suddenly, a catalyst event, like a merger, makes them the favored top elite pilot group in the country......

We were offered DAL +1 before the merger. MGT. had a cool website and everything to try and convince us that we should give away our scope and take the few pieces of silver. We responded by flooding the CPO with the printed offers with a big NO printed on them. The CAL group would not have given up 50 seat scope without this merger being shoved down our throat.

You're kidding right! Your management didn't need or want RJ's. They had the cal pilots with worst than RJ work rules to cover it.

Damn straight it didn't meet my expectations. Sorry you don't feel you were worth more. Kinda sad actually.

Motch

Wow, a United Pilot who actually apologizes for something. I thought you guys never made mistakes or wrong assumptions?!

Hero?!
Wow.. guess English comprehension isn't in the top of your skill sets, huh.

My definition of a "Hero" is someone who runs towards danger.. The Greatest Generation comes to mind.. the guys who stormed the beaches at Normandy.
Or those Firefighters who ran into the towers on 9/11... knowing that they might not come out.

Hero is a pretty big word. Shouldn't be thrown around like it means nothing. Then again, a handful of you tools only think that you and your United Pilots are so great, and that every CAL Pilots is either a SCAB, or just lucky to be there, that we should be glad to fly jets with the name "United" on the side. That we brought nothing to the table.

In Aug/Sept we will have the list. We'll see where it leads next. Just hope that this small segment on APC doesn't really represent the big picture.
Every UAL Furloughee/CAL NewHire I've flown with has been pretty cool. Even the ones with the red id holders and the one without wings on his shirt. (and I totally agreed with where he was coming with that.)

See you in the Fall.
You know who I am.. so you have the advantage. Happy?!

Always
Motch