New Union?
 

I've heard a lot of complaining, on both sides, out on the line about ALPA. Do you think the "new" United will attempt to bring in a "new" union now that SLI is done?

I dont see it happening. While ALPA has its faults, it is probably the best and cheapest insurance I have for my career. They make mistakes don't get me wrong but I have seen nothing at USAPA that makes me think a new union would fix anything.

Most of these new unions are grown out of individuals who have very distinct issues with ALPA. They tend to have strong personalities and everything will work as long as you agree with them.

Just what do you think alpo is? Time to dump alpo.

Real easy to say on a forum. Not so easy to do. ALPA is like our government. It may be screwed up and dysfunctional but I would still choose it over the alternatives.

Show me anything that works any better. I've been a Teamster, no better. USAPA is a mess. The Allied Pilots Association wont have us. And, the IACP while it had a bunch of cash, was the same Good Old Boy group that you are complaining about here.

It amazes me that pilots would use this seniority list integration as a reason to get rid of ALPA. I'm not exactly an ALPA cheerleader, but....

If you get rid of ALPA be assured there will be a movement to "pay by longevity" in the next contract. If you don't mind that by all means start your quixotic journey to decertify ALPA.

Birddog

All About Me

For who? I mean, clearly USAPA has been a huge success. :rolleyes:

The SLI is not the only reason. Alpo is a crooked organization only interested in self preservation. They don't give a damn about you. I have been involved several years. What I have seen behind the scenes would curl your hair. This was no doubt my last contract. I am only thinking of the future pilots who will no doubt have to endure more of the same.

If run properly, with the appropriate safeguards in place, a union should run like a swiss watch. Problem is, we've never seen one run properly.

And you think that will change with a different union? Look at APA and TWA. Or USAPA. Politics are politics. That won't change, regardless of who your union is.

The problem is it is run by humans. Humans by their nature often get wrapped up in politics and lose sight of the good they intended to do. That is why I have always been in favor of term limits in Congress. Once you get the power it is tough to give it up and the political quagmire changes you. Mix that with pilots who are naturally divided by airlines, aircraft type, pay rates, etc and you are amazed that it becomes what it is? Simply changing the name is not going to change reality. In that case, ALPA wins in my book simply because of the years and years of organization and operating expertise and it's political power.

ALPA is staying.

Want to place a bet on that? I predict alpo will be bankrupt or gone from the UAL property in under 2 years.

Unions have been great for America. We are doing so well!

The first case of craft beer is on me, sent to your house if in 2 years ALPA is off the property.

DAL has tried and cant muster more than 500 or so cards this year and if an election was to be called, the Teamsters will ask to be put on the ballot as well and ALPA wins any vote by 75% at least.

I would say that for now ALPA is staying. We need to get the unified MEC to tell Jeff the free ride is over.

However, if Moak tries to hold back more of the retro pay, I'd personally work as hard as I can to decertify and go independent.

ALPA is not a UNION. Sorry if this upsets some of you but by its' own name it is an ASSOCIATION, a confederation if you will. A real union brings together those employed in the same craft, piloting commercial airliners, and ensures equal pay for equal work. By design ALPA creates conflict and dissention, pitting one pilot group against another. ALPA defenders will try to tell you how the system actually works, making it the perfect platform for "pattern bargaining" which will result in "jacking up the table" as each group negotiates a new contract. The only fly in this ointment has been deregulation which has provided management with the tools to cut the legs off the table, reducing pilot compensation and QOL. Please do not associate a real union with a national seniority list. An NSL is not necessary to have an effective UNION, and in fact would be impossible to establish among currently employed pilots so please do not use even bring it up. The bitterness, rancor and divisiveness that has been generated by this SLI process has been seen in every merger and will be revisited in the next one. With a real union this would not be such an issue. But don't let me be the one to state what is necessary, in 1990 Captain Hank Duffy, speaking as the outgoing ALPA president said, "I believe unequivocally that anything less than a strong centralized national union in today's environment is suicide for the profession and eventually for every pilot group." We were warned! The death spiral for our profession started over three decades ago and the turns seem to be getting tighter each year. You better pull out now, that is if it is not already to late.

Nope. Its a "trade union" formed under FRLA. Its a UNION.

Middle Eastern carriers growing rapidly and pouring money into Washington with the goal of putting you out of work. I think going forward having a known voice on Capital Hill representing large groups of US pilots is going to become increasingly important. Fighting pre-clearance US customs facilities in Abu Dhabi funded in part with our own tax dollars is just the tip of the sand dune.

Weekends, holidays, paid vacation, sick leave, workers compensation for lost life and limb, retirement benefits, work place safety, child labor laws . . .

All these benefits that you take for granted came at the expense of lost lives and hard work from previous "unions", but because Milton Friedman convinced America that Unions were the devil we now have a group of workers that are convinced that Unions are the problem. Could it be that Unions are not the problem? That sometimes pure Capitalistic Laissez Faire economics is not the total solution?

Nahhh. . .

Down with the unions! Especially ALPA. It doesn't help me even though I have done nothing to help ALPA . . . . ALPA is the problem. The individual should get everything they want without having to get involved!


Ah, yeah, no.


Study the history of unions and how they can be effective and how they can be abusive. Then come back and post . . .



And, for the record, America is the most powerful and efficient nation in the history of mankind and our middle class, which is the backbone of the nation, is successful in no small part because of the unionization that occured immediately before and after WWII.

Wow, fantastic. Have you seen the economy in the States, you realize what has been going on recently. You meant the Teachers unions, especially in Chicago? Large home builders that are shedding away from union workers because of costs. Auto Workers in Detroit?

Ya, I was a volunteer for ALPA. And I got to see the lovely parties in Florida and Vegas. And got to see how my grievance was settled for about ten cents on the dollar. If I owned a business making those kind of deals, my business would surely fail. Exactly why threads like this exists.

Is America the all powerful nation in the world? I don't know anymore. Maybe our military is. But economically? Which way is the country heading? You can do some research if you think the economy is really recovering.

There are many differences between ALPA being "recognized" as a "trade union" and a real trade union. My father was a carpenter and member of The United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America for over 4 decades. Sitting on the other side of the table when negotiating was the builders council representing all contractors in a major metropolitan region of our country. When settled ALL carpenters worked for the same pay, benefits and work rules regardless of which company they worked for. During three college summers I went to work as a "Student Carpenter", a program provided by the union to allow the son of a carpenter to work at half pay between college semesters, and never worked for the same contractor, even changing work sites and contractors during the first summer. Technically Dad was employed through the union although in his case he was in high demand by the various contractors due to the high regard they all had for him, and they would call Dad at home asking him to come to work on their project. The point here is that a real trade union makes sure all its members are paid equally for their work and does not pit one group against the other within the trade. If you were to read the history of ALPA you would know that "equal pay for equal work" was one of the founding principles that helped Dave Behncke garner support for his organization. In fact this principle was also a major part of the justification for the support ALPA received from the US congress and the White House. ALPA abandon the idea of equal representation long ago, if it ever actually existed at all, in favor of wheeling and dealing to ensure that the biggest were kept in the fold and keep ALPA afloat at any cost, including acting to the detriment of its lesser members. Why hasn't ALPA ever proposed a "national contract" for all its members? Why hasn't ALPA sought changes to the RLA, or better yet the repeal of the act? (How many of you realize we negotiate in accordance with a regulation that was enacted in 1926 and last amended in 1936?) How has ALPA changed to cope with the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978? The questions go on but ALPA apologists will assure you that ALPA with all its warts is as good as we can get, is it? Lets hope not. Oh yes, a real trade unionist would be amazed if they saw the way ALPA represents it members, and walk away in total disbelief.