Avoid with bid-failed
 

Well even though I'm at 50% I'm still not privileged enough to avoid a problematic captain that everyone else tries to avoid.

What to do about it? I won't burn sick list. I believe that management should get out from behind their desks and fly with the troublemakers rather than turning them loose on us "jr" 17 yr pilots.

Flt mgrs are well aware of who the problematic captains are.

Has anyone found a workaround for this one?

What has Pro Stands said about the issue?

Good question. An FA (of all people) said she complained to them. I never asked her. She asked if I knew of him and then went on a rant.

What did Pro Stands say to YOU?

I'm guilty of never calling them. I guess that's the only solution.

I guess I'll confront him the first time he pulls his crap. If he keeps it up I'll call pro standards.

Thanks for your thoughts

Address it with him. If he blows you off, tell him you will walk of the flight. If it comes down to that, call prostandards immediately, followed up with a call to your rep then the FODM...
Usually never gets past the point of saying you walking off if the stuff doesn't stop.

The odds are that everyone you mentioned probably already knows. More attention is better and might be the only way this person changes their behavior.

Interestingly, the NTSB is looking into this and was apparently disappointed that the airlines don't do anything with the "Don't fly with xx" data other than save sick leave. This might be the place to start assessing "Mental Health" in certain individuals' longer-term behavior trends.

Call your local flight manager. Explain to them that you will not be working with this pilot. They can either deal with it now or one hour prior to departure when you remind them again. Remind them that this pilot is on your no fly list and that is for a reason ( use the cuss words emphasis on Unsafe ). More than likely they will pull the trip with no pay and you can pick something else up.
Don't waste your time with pro standards. If this pilot is the tool you think they are - they have already been spoken to and it hasn't helped.
Good Luck,
Pest

Pro standards has no teeth. You'd be shocked what I turned a pilot in for and pro standards did nothing.

Pro standards does not have any teeth, correct. But when flt ops does get involved, that will be their first question. And, if you have any issues, they will use the fact that you have talked to pro standards to pile on in any investigation or disciplinary hearings.

Be careful, but be honest. Tell it like it is. Pro standards does not have teeth, but you do need to be on record as having consulted.

Do you have a reference or link to this? You're getting my hopes up that someone is finally going to do something about this problem.

Most of the time, simply some outside or supervisory attention causes that pilot to change his behavior in the cockpit for purely practical considerations--I don't want to deal with the company on my days off and I don't want to lose a $200k+/yr income for jerkish behavior that I can at least pretend to correct. I heard that one airline calls in a captain when he gets 25 FOs avoiding him and say, "there are a lot a guys avoiding flying with you. Are you having any medical, mental or personal issues in play? If so we'd like to give you some time off to resolve these issues. Let us know in the next couple of weeks if you want some time off. Our only concern is your welfare and we're just here to help." Non confrontational but crystal clear: we know you're a jerk and there's a bumpy road ahead if you don't fix it. I heard that this often fixes the problem without time off or further discussion.

I heard the NTSB is looking at the "Don't fly with..." in the SWA in LGA investigation. The second part was my conjecture and I share your concerns.

Can u share which fleet or at least base? Pm if necessary...

I agree there should be a way to resolve issues with these captains.

However, I doubt at 50% that this was the reason you went into denial mode.

It may have been a contributing factor, but unless you had avoid captain xxxxxx, award work, it was not the reason all your bids failed.

More likely you asked for July 4th weekend off, all weekends off, avoid red eyes, avoid 4 days, avoid trips less than 6 hours/ day etc etc etc etc. and at 50%, you could not do all that AND avoid captain xxxxxx.

I hope after the German Wings murder suicide airlines are going to be forced to take these issues seriously. Every company has difficult employees, not just pilots or airlines but every industry.

Maybe the NTSB will suggest a program after the full investigation is published.

it really depends where you are on the G-Line… if you are at the bottom or below then the only trips available for PBS to award you could be with the AVOID Captain… which would cause a failure to award.

Just out the guy.
I don't fly with jerks.

Is it 0205L again?

"'I'm guilty of never calling them. I guess that's the only solution. "

Yep you're part of the problem.

Call Pro Standards (kind of like filing an FSAP) and just confront the Captain before the trip even starts; and a good place to do so is the initial flight planning. If this body gives you any push back just tell him/her the two of you are going straight into the flight office to work this out.

Be prepared to have some future vacation, sick list or even a WOP charged to you for the trip. Unless you are willing to pay the price and do something about this pilot's actions nothing will change.

Corbus or Mahan?

Bwahahahaha

That is VERY GOOD advice. If enough people followed your advice, problem Captains would have a lot of face time in the flight office explaining why they are so difficult to fly with. Years ago, before the do-not-fly-with came into being, I had a lot of issues with a well-know psychopath Captain. This man thrived on conflict and was well-known inside the flight office. I finally called Pro-stan and to my surprise received a phone call from the committee chairperson who said they have a very thick file on the individual and that I SHOULD CALL IN SICK when paired up to fly with him. I REFUSED. I told the Pro-stan guy that if I call in sick then he wins! He told me that the Captain will say that I can't fly and that's why he gets so upset. I said "well get an LCA to ride with me but I'm not calling in sick". It was never resolved so I left the fleet for a different jet. That's how I resolved it. I wish I had your advice back then because that would have been a great solution.

+1

In a base with ~500 CAs there's always the bottom 0.4%.

Have you tried having an adult discussion with the captain, in neutral setting? There is good chance he hasn't heard directly from his first officers in this manner. Most people try to avoid any direct confrontation, and just move on and use the avoid-with strategy. You are not helping anyone by doing that.

Many years ago I flew with one such captain on the DC-9. He was a big, body builder and came across as being intimidating before he even opened his mouth.

A few minutes into our talk, he broke down and told me no one ever talked to him like that. He really did not even realize why the flight attendants did not like him either. He did improve and actually put himself in counselling. ( which unfortunately he had to tell me all about whenever I flew with or saw him).

When I "told" him we needed to have a discussion, he first took it as a challenge to his authority. I explained that if we didn't, I would take myself off the trip. That worked.

Remember too that us captains have no way to bid around first officers. There is one that I told to put me on his "avoid" list. Haven't flown with him since- although flying with his wife was quite pleasant.

The purpose of Pro-Stans is to mediate these problems by having a conversation with both parties and eventually bringing them together in a conversation with Pro-stans being a neutral party and thus the conversation is solution driven. Pro-Stans should be analyzing these "do-not-fly-with Captains. Determining who these Captains are who continually show up these lists and make a preemptive "strike" by making a call and asking the Captain why they are so popular on the do-not-fly list. A phone call may give notice that the Captain needs to self-evaluate their behavior with regard to their crew environment. Then, when an FO says that "we need to have a conversation"; the Captain will know that he needs to change. I always say a leopard never changes his spots but you never know.
I would be mortified to know if I was on some FO's do-not-fly list but chances are good that I have surely angered somebody along the way and have made the list. I'm hoping it is a very short list

Lol! Don't forget about TF. Youngest line crosser at Eddie's airline.

TF is the worst, I love the "note" next to his name on the Master List. Evidently he dropped the -r from the end of his name when he came to CAL to distance himself (from what I heard) from his also-scabby-daddy at EAL.

He said he was at 50%

My reply was based on what he said.

AVOID captain xxxxxx was not the reason he went into denial mode at 50%, it MIGHT have been a contributing factor.

In future, as much as you may not want to , you need to bid all 20 bid groups and loosen up your options so that if all you care about is captain xxxx, then that is what you bid in BG 20.

Avoid captain xxxxx
AWARD work.

Good Luck next month.

Everyone should re-read what DF wrote above. This will keep you out of trouble and will eventually offer an avenue for relieve. If on the other hand, you don't care about getting in trouble or want instant relieve, invite the offender out behind the hangar.

Your Mama probably told you that you are not going to like everybody and not everyone is going to like you but you should try to get along anyway. And, you should not launder your dirty underwear in public. Threads like this demonstrate that she knew what she was talking about. (A public forum is NO PLACE to air this out PERIOD)

At the 50% level, if you can't avoid flying with your unfavored Captain maybe a good education on PBS bidding is in order or maybe you have too many "avoid flying with" on your bid and that may require a little self-reflection instead.

Sounds like Lou and Sue. Agree, Sue was awesome. No wonder they got divorced.

There is also another way. You can have the flight office reach out to pro standards instead of you. most of the flight office folks wear alpa pins and they support the process.

This can sort of take the monkey off your back and it still helps to close the loop. There is no contractual requirement for you to directly go to the pro standards yourself.

I would personally rather talk it over at the bar or over a cup of coffee. Most of the problem guys were scabs and they went from FE straight to the left seat without being an FO so they don't "get it." so to speak. Most of those problems should be worked out by now though.

Ha! I remember standing next to angry Lou waiting on a hotel van one night in our B1900 days when he suddenly yells out "Hey! go suck on that cancer stick someplace else, fattie!" to some poor girl like 30 feet away.

I disagree here to some extent. Interpersonal conflicts are often very subtle, and there is a tendency, even among experienced first officers, to ask the question, "Is it me, or is it this other person?"

Sometimes it's helpful to bounce these experiences off of a colleague. These boards, albeit public, allow some of us to share those experiences and get some much needed feedback. Naming names, although tempting, may not be the best course, but seeking advice and finding you are not alone can be very therapeutic.

My 2 cents.

Pros Stans should be the next to last resort. Someone needs to grow a spine and learn to work out some interpersonal problems themselves as a first resort.