Elimination of the Simulator Requirement
 

Sorry if this has been asked before, I searched the past 2 years threads with no answer...

I have read elsewhere that the simulator portion of the hiring process is to be eliminated in October. Can anyone validate this. Thanks!

I should hope so!

UAL's "sweet spot" is 6000TT and 3000PIC.
It's safe to assume a pilot knows how to fly an airplane with those times.

One would think, yet at an average age of 35 with numerous internal and external recommendations they still mandate the Hogan psych test for applicants.

I got hired 20 years ago. The airlines led the charge in HR Nazi hiring practices, not the least of which was UAL.

I used to complain about them as well. As much as I hate to admit it, I think there is some merit to it.

Flame suit on.

It's my understanding that the simulator portion of the hiring process is much more about personality, getting along with someone and basic CRM rather than specific flying skills.

Just what I've heard from a Capt who does them; I haven't done this myself.

Comments? Opinions?

Has more to do with the sims getting pulled out to make room for the 737NG and 787 sims. October was rumored as to when it was to happen. Can tell you they are booked through sept right now.

My impression was it was an exercise in CRM and whether you could prioritize aviation, navigation, and communication. Every time I got close to a heading, I was told to change a freq. Every time I got close to a level off alt, I was given a new heading or airspeed to hold, etc.

I believe that a simulator evaluation is fair. I think that the sim is used to evaluate basic airmanship and most importantly, decision making ability, along with CRM skills. I have seen pilots that have been in the left seat for 20 years at a previous airline that couldn't fly an airplane and have no business flying a kite, let alone an airplane. So TT does not necessarily equate to airmanship. I also think that it's important that we hire pilots that can think like a Captain. We are getting a lot of applicants that are high time FOs or new Captains from the Regionals. In addition, for those that have not been in a crew environment, CRM skills have to be evaluated. Just my $0.02...

This.

The heads of Training and Flight Standards came in to the last newhire class and addressed it. They said it had to happen with the consolidation of training in DEN. There just isn't going to be any extra room in the building for non-essential simulators.

Sure there is. The Frasca in the basement set up hardly takes up any room.

I also believe it is important to hire candidates who can think like a Captain. Unfortunately this is not always the case and it is going on everywhere, not just United. I don't know who is responsible but it seems that certain groups of people completely pass under the radar. While TT does not necessarily equate to airmanship, certain people have been hired with barely the mins, 0 PIC time, and limited CRM experience. I ask, how is this possible and who thought it would be a good idea? This is a recipe for disaster and is not fair to the people who have to fly with these individuals.

Disagree. You will see sim portion go away. Older sims being sold to make room for new sims. And yes, my well placed source. What the new hire class was told is the beginning of he end. I think at most, a year and that's generous

I was on the United Military Hiring Webinar last month and BK, head of hiring at UAL, said the SIM portion of interview is definitely going away. The timeline was much looser, but he indicated this fall to early spring as the window.

Sim evaluation is an integral part of interview process. Just because an applicant has 7K hours, it doesn't mean he/she can operate in multi crew environment and utilize all available resources. Sim evaluates, basic CRM, operation in stressful situation, as well as skills of adaptability to new environment and procedures. I hope it stays as a part of interview process. It's not the amount of hours you have on your resume, but the quality of experience. You may have an applicant with 7K hours in C-414etc single pilot, 4K hours of CRJ/ERJ airlines, 4K in C17/C5 etc multi crew, 3K of F16F18etc, or 15K in Citation or Challenger etc FAR135; they are all different in the way pilots operate in those environments. A pilot flying in FAR135 Challenger for 20 years as a PIC, writing his/her own procedures, making small repairs on the field, just to get the show on the road and satisfy demands of rich and famous, will have a difficult time adopting into rigorists, procedural environment which is FAR121, where pilots, that have never flown with each other, can work in synch. It's obvious, that pilots with regional airline experience or armed forces multi crew environment experience, will have much higher advantage, then single pilots of fighters, or private jets. I have came accross, pilots transiting to FAR121, after flying FAR91,135 for 20 years as single pilots, or two pilots, where they operated the same aircraft for years, flying with the same co-pilot. They had many problems adopting to FAR121 CRM and procedures, and many, after multiple failures, decides to quit, or were terminated during training, some quit after just few months on probation, and returned into corporate, charter flying business. That's why, I believe we need those sim evaluations as a part of interview process, before we invest $ into such candidate.

The sim is BS. Pay $1500 to get the gouge is BS. Hiring should be based on resume and recommendations. Anybody who comes from a regional has been trained in CRM. Anyone who comes from the military with a background in crew aircraft is trained in CRM. Anyone who comes from the military with a fighter background can be trained to to do anything.

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree. I think the sim is a good part of the interview....especially the way they do it these days. It really is focused on the CRM aspect. What I do wish is they would make it so you are unable to buy a couple of hours ahead of time. I think if everyone came in cold they could get a feel for your basic skills...can you keep the thing shiny side up? Along the way they get a feel for your CRM ability and general personality in a cockpit (can we say that?). However, I dont run things, so guys will still be able to get time in it before hand. I still think it is a good part of the interview....much more applicable to the job of flying than the hogan test.

My feeling is you get the interview based on resume and recs and get the job based on personality and ability to fly the plane (sim).

Most simulator rides are focusing on workload management skills as well as the ability to learn and be trained. If you can't memorize some pitch and power settings, or take constructive advice how will you fare in training?

Delta's light pen cognitive test is a good test of situational awareness, decision making, and spatial skills. It is not a good indicator of if you can fly an airplane. Most airlines believe they can teach you to fly, but if the ingredients are not there, the cog test can weed it out.

^+1
While every pilot who steps in to the sim knows how to fly.. so did every pilot/crew that has ever been involved in an accident or incident.
(IMO) What the sim interview brings is- can this individual learn the callouts and flow within a short time period, can they handle 2 or 3 things at once, how do they handle a strange stressful environment while under the eyes of someone.. and lastly, there's the CRM aspect.

Only those in the hiring department know the answer.. but, wonder how many are not getting through the sim portion?
Obviously the Hogan Test seems to be taking out (good?!) applicants. How many get shot down during the interview? and lastly.. the sim.

I would rather see less weight on the Hogan, more on personal recs.. and keep the panel and sim. But that's just me.
Always
Motch

PS> Every NH I've flown with has had a great attitude and been a quick/good learner. From the ASA FO (ex intern) to the retired USMC Col (ex Hornets). But there are also some pilots I flew with back in the regional & military days that I know would have a hard time getting through all 3 phases of our interview process. Lets keep it at 3 phases.. just weighed differently~

Hahaha dude chill out its all good. Nobody gives a sheet anyway so frack off tooool

Some of you may not know that back in the 1999-2001 hiring there was no sim. They had a technical portion during the panel interview instead.
United was well know for the "mental math" problems they gave in the interview.

A buddy just did contract sim training in the 737 sim they use for interviews a few weeks ago. United told his instructors the two 737 sims will be gone in two months.

Out flies the sim, in flies the technical interview!

2007-2008 timeframe as well at UAL.

I've noticed this as well. I can think of two guys off hand who were some the most obnoxious people I've ever shared a cockpit who made it through the Hogan (one got hired, one busted yhe interview). I can also think of several others who were experienced, respected, knowledgeable, skilled aviators. Check airmen. Union volunteers. Capital "C" Captains. Weeded out by the Hogan. Go figure.

Have you got your displacement yet?;)

And that, in a nutshell, is the way it should be! Ron Kent for VP in charge of pilot recruitment.

Damn ****in right. Is this clear enough for you gen-x/millenial ****tards? Drop 75 lbs, tuck in your shirt, remove the earbuds and try again. For ****s sake, all we do is fly a SID, level off, descend, STAR, followed by a visual or ILS. If the aforementioned events are the acme of your aeronautical experience then you are in way over your inflated head.

Hahaha you r a tool!

This is factually incorrect. In the summer of 1999 they were using a DC10 motion off sim. You flew the same profile they used for years.

The sim is needed. right now we do have high time people coming in. flew with a new hire that had about 2000 TT. I think we need it for that reason.

also, in about 5 years from now, what will the average new hire applicant have in his or her logbook?

Keep the sim.

"Anyone who comes from the military with a fighter background can be trained to to do anything"

So it's true, fighter pilots need more training. ;)

All this talk about who's the most qualified makes me nauseous. Here's what counts, if you got hired you met the criteria of the day.

In five years the average applicant will have to have a minimum of ATP to even be considered.

In the 60s all they had to have was a private pilot license, United paid for their commercial and Instrument. Many never got their multi rating until they took a PC in the right seat (after the FAA made it mandatory).

Today's pilots and applicants are far more qualified than in the day.

I stand corrected, but it was definitely gone by summer of 2000 til hiring ended in 2001.
Just talked with a guy that went to the OBAP job fair. He heard sim is gone Oct 1. only guesses about what will replace it. Some said some kind of CRM exercise. Others said testing like DAL and others do.

Another bitter guy who failed to achieve his fighter pilot dream, or was rejected altogether. You are nauseous while merely looking at this thread -- perhaps that was the reason for your undoing.

The future is now:

Pilot Positions and Career Opportunities | United Airlines

I'm not sure but I think for the MIL guys, unrestricted does not mean centerline thrust restrictions. :cool:

Yep, that is what I meant! We are in the future!

A restricted ATP is not for centerline thrust, that is a rating.

A restricted ATP is for those who don't meet the minimum requirements but have passed the test. Example, not age 23, part 141 school hours... and

The Restricted ATP certificate is for multi-engine aircraft and can only be used to serve as a first officer at an air carrier.

All pilots must:

Be at least 21 years old;
Hold a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating;
Pass the ATP knowledge test and practical test;
Meet the aeronautical experience requirements of Section 61.160.

Military pilots must:

Have a minimum of 750 hours of total flight time as a pilot.

Civilian pilots with 1000 hours of total flight time must:

Be a graduate from an institution of higher education who holds a bachelor's degree with an aviation major and has completed at least 60 semester credit hours of aviation course work;
Have obtained the commercial pilot certificate and instrument rating from an associated part 141 pilot school.

Civilian pilots with 1250 hours of total flight time must:

Be a graduate from an institution of higher education who holds a bachelor's degree or an associate's degree with an aviation major and has completed at least 30 semester credit hours of aviation course work;
Have obtained the commercial pilot certificate and instrument rating from an associated part 141 pilot school.

Civilian pilots with 1500 hours of total flight and 200 hours of cross country flight time qualify.

I think the military will be training mostly drone pilots in the future. Not taking in that many and not letting that many go.

I wouldn't design a hiring interview process designed around what the USAF/USN and other branches do or don't do.

The simulator requirement could only be dropped if you vouched for an applicant. If no "voucher" in place, I would make sure there is a simulator.

No need to do a standard profile either. I would mix it up, but that's just me.

A one page essay on the return of TED!

Centerline Interview Consulting

The airlines will be hiring pilots with lower and lower time.

For that reason I think the simulator needs to be kept.

I remember in 1991 having to fly a simulator to interview for Trans States Airlines. I think it was a metro sim.

Also, with lower times, It is likely that the airlines will need to re-adjust their training footprints (expand them). Separate issue, but the training pipe line may get longer.

The sim is mostly about your willingness to do the prep to fly a profile you will never fly either in training or on the line. Still would rather take my chances in a sim because think the sim is better predictor than the Hogan or an arcane knowledge test. Interview and Recs even better.