New hire seeking ORD Jr FO B737 v A320 advice
 

1/27 CJO here told to expect 3/1 or 3/8 start and I'm seeking some advice from relatively junior O'Hare FOs in both narrowbodies. I'm pretty versed in the relative merits of each airframe independent of specific domicile re: comfort while flying (320) vs. (perhaps?) better overnights/destinations (737). I know relative seniority is a crapshoot/moving target with both fleets growing. I'm 41 so I'm assuming with the relatively even split I've seen in the January classes that I should have airframe choice if not domicile as an older-than-average new hire (that doesn't feel great to say!)...

My family and I live an easy 12-15 minute drive from Lambert just west of St. Louis....O'Hare seems like a no-brainer as a 1+15 flight with 16 total direct flights per day including about 7 United Express RJs and several AA MD80s. Here are a couple specific questions if you all would kindly help out:

- Any STL commuters who can chime in on a) relative difficulty/ease of STL-ORD commute and which more junior base I should chose at drop night since ORDs is rarely avail until first vacancy bid? STL-EWR looks promising with 4 United Express and several SWA each day (albeit a different terminal)...I understand SWA rocks for commuters with early boarding. I also hear that EWR trips are much better than SFO/LAX junior trips WRT redeyes and body clock so I was planning on trying to grab EWR regardless of airframe?
- Airframe. I flew 737s in the USAF from '04-'08 and haven't flown anything in 2 years....I'm leaning Guppy for familiarity as I knock the rust off AND what appears to be better destinations (toes in the sand and hub-to-hub stuff yes?) Can any junior ORD 737 or 320 FOs weigh in on their years 1-2 trip variety via PBS? Also, I'm interested if either airframe out of ORD has a decided advantage for commuters (i.e. pairings with later launches and earlier recoveries to avoid hotel nights?) Specifically, there is a UE RJ STL-ORD 7 days/wk that takes off at 0500 and lands by 0615 followed by an AA 0517 land 0630ish....I will probably preposition for early lines the night prior during probation to play it safe but with those 2 flights plus about 2 more landing before 0800, I'd love to be able to start some mid-AM launches from my house in St. Louis at 0330....more likely in either airframe from ORD?

Any other "tiebreakers" specific to ORD ops? I'm assuming the 2 yr seat lock so I'd like to make a smart choice. I'm also wondering if STL will be a ripe target for "upgauging" with the new 737-700 order delivering mid-2017 or if this market is more likely upgauged with A319s....I'd love to eventually be able to put STL overnights into PBS without screwing my overall line quality....pipedream?! Currently there is a solitary seasonal 737-800 STL-SFO mainline here, otherwise all RJs.

Lots of questions...sorry for the overload but hoping for some perspectives from United STL commuters and/or younger ORD FOs. Cheers!
BK

Hi, Welcome aboard!

I don't have a lot of answers to your questions, but on the final snapshot for the current bid that closes tomorrow there are still 19 unfilled 737 FO spots in ORD. There are 0 on the 320. In fact, the ORD 737 FO staffing was increased by 19 on this bid, and they were allowing 22 320 FO's to leave the category without replacing them.

One other thing you might think about is ORD 756 FO. That category is growing as well. It might take a little longer to get into that, but is still going relatively junior.

Good luck. Wear your half-wing with pride. It's good for a lot of free beer!

Thanks Mike for the quick reply and warm welcome....my family and I are so pumped! I've snuck some peaks at a bud's CCS trying to decipher bid packages and it looked like 756 was all stateside stuff like ORD-IAH no? I didn't see ANY international on that equip out of ORD so I must be searching incorrectly. Right now they aren't awarding 756 to newbies as those slots are being filled by 2-yr seat lock releases I was told....but I'd definitely be interested, especially because I've heard many international pairings are commutable on both ends. Thanks again, BK

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ORD 756 is still being developed as they transition the L-UAL guys 76T flying to the end state 756 category. I think in the end they will be doing a bunch of Europe flying on the 767-300 from ORD, as well as some 757 flying.

I did the STL-ORD commute for a couple years. It's not as easy as one might think. There's lots of flights but they're all oversold for the most part. Add in some weather in Chicago and it's a nightmare with cancelled flights, ground stops and every other commuter trying to get to work. Since you're going to be commuting on AA/UAX you don't have any priority on the jumpseat. If things started melting down I tried to go to MDW on WN or just commuter caused it and went home.

STL-EWR/LGA was way easier in terms of getting on flights. Nearly always got on.

Congrats on getting on with UAL!

I was a longtime Stl commuter and I can second what flyguy81 said. ORD can be tough at times with weather and weight restricted flights. Trans States and Gojet also have crew bases on both ends so there can be multiple positive space crewmembers gumming up the works so to speak. Just leave yourself multiple backups and you can make it work.

As for 737 flying coming back into StL, I would not hold my breath. With the aforementioned regionals headquartered in St. Louis, I am sure they will fight tooth and nail to hold onto the flying they have. Anything is possible though. Heck, 15 years ago ALL StL UAL flying was mainline.

Good luck and welcome aboard!

I really enjoyed the STL layovers while I was on the 737. It was a good trip out of EWR. SFO-STL where you got in around 7pm. Plenty of time for dinner and drinks, then back to SFO the next evening. That was maybe 3 years ago. The RJ crowd did give a few sideways glances when they saw the guppy pull in.

Congrats and welcome to United!, I don know much about the commute part, but did want to mention the seat lock part. You can always move up in pay band, so you can bid 756 at your first opportunity.

Congrats and welcome aboard.....

My advice is ORD 737. Enjoy the easy training in a plane you already know and enjoy time off with your family as you will hold a line sooner on the 737. Of course YMMV....and things always change but ORD is a safe bet for an STL commuter ...

STL-ORD shows about a 4.5 hr drive on google maps. Not something you'd want to do regularly, but it is at least *possible* if all the flights blow up. It's always nice to have your car as a last ditch commuting option.

(756) In addition to London, Brussels, Paris, and Amsterdam on the 763, I expect Dublin, Shannon, and Edinburgh to return on the 757 this summer.


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I knew a herk driver who went to an AF guppy a while ago......AAK

FWIW, the only pilot that I personally know that was doing STL-ORD ended up driving most trips. After allowing multiple flights, and usually getting bumped often enough to need the backup(s), it ended up being better for him to simply drive from a time/stress standpoint. He felt he could very consistently leave the house later by driving.

(He was in the top 30% on the 737, BTW.)

YMMV.

Having flown a Boeing for 25 years I would try to get on an Airbus, strictly on the basis of a work environment. There is so much more to it than that though, as your question indicates.

STL-ORD is a much easier commute, and can be driven in a pinch.

STL-EWR has fewer flights, and LOTS of ATC delays and cancellations.

good luck!

I would second the 737 bid in ORD. About 12 months ago the 320 was the junior seat and about 1/2 of the senior FO's left to go to higher paying seats (777 or narrowbody CA). That rate has slowed as the top 20% of the pilots stay on the bus for the QQL and not having to go to school.

The 737 has more block hours and more options in general. The seniority on that airplane is much closer together new hires to say 1997 L-UAL FO's. And like the 320 the top 20% are on it for daytrips and QQL.

Good luck.

Sorry I can't help you but welcome to the party!

This is just another perspective, but I hope you'll consider this long and hard. . .

You have a 24 year career ahead of you. That's a LONG time. I totally understand why folks choose to commute, but I hope you'll give some serious thought to moving.

In my 25 year career I have commuted about half the time because my wife had a career that moved our family around.

ORD-LGA
LGA-ORD
PDX-JFK
PDX-SFO
JFK-SFO
JFK-IAD

Now for me personally, the pleasure of not commuting truly out weighs all else not to mention adding up all the time lost away from home just commuting. As a person hired later in life, you will spend a great deal of your career on reserve if you reach for higher earnings and bigger equipment early, and commuting to reserve is a bear. Sitting reserve at home can be a down right pleasure.

I know we all have our reasons and family can play an important role, but having moved around the country I can honestly say that I could have settled into any of the locations we lived in and called it "home". It may be incredibly hard to imagine leaving STL and even harder to convince your wife or family (if you have such) but my personal advice to you is to "bite the bullet" and get yourself a paid move at the end of your probationary year. You'll have 23 years of absolutely blissful life as compared to 24 years of what for me was high stress.

Anyways, I know that's a tough and very personal decision, but there it is . . . one dude's advice . . .

Move to one of the secure domiciles ORD, EWR, SFO, IAH, or IAD. I'm not sure I would consider LAX or DEN because it just seems to me they are perpetually on the edge.

Lastly, as to your original question. Although I have not commuted STL-ORD I can say unequivocally that any commute with mainline and SW as an option is superior to a commute on RJs and furthermore, based on growth in the fleet and the size of the position I would argue the EWR 737 would be the absolute best commute and have the most rapid growth by far. Getting off reserve as quickly as possible should be your highest priority and although the only fact I have to work with is the recently announced order of 40 more 737s, I would hazard to guess that the fastest movement in the company will be EWR 737FO over the next 12 to 36 months. I could be wrong and I'll let others chime in with more info, but maybe you could start by looking at where guys are sitting in ORD320, ORD737, and EWR737 who were hired one year ago. That would be my starting point.

This is great advice, I've done ORD-STL and it's no fun.

As it stands for a one year pilot in March, subject to change after the current bid results.
ORD737 ~90%
ORD320 ~84%
ORD756 ~99%
EWR737 ~74%
EWR320 ~44%
EWR756 ~83%
SFO737 ~64%
SFO320 ~61%
SFO756 ~86%




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Its funny how an 80 degree day in Feb (FL) can put the hassle of commuting in a different perspective when DC has two feet of snow in its forecast. ;)

Commuting didn't use to be such a monumental hassle. Perhaps this is why you see so many older guys doing it. Particularly those flying international with late show times and early releases. But after 911 the dynamic changed when the company loaned the RJ's hundreds of city pairs. That and record load factors affecting all flights really dicked up commuting.

Its a tough choice. Good luck.

And that's what makes life wonderful! Something for all of us.

Me, I enjoy walking my dogs in the woods after a snowfall, starting a fire, and reading a good book by the flames, and skiing on a bright sunny morning.

You could put a 777 base in Miami and offer my the number one captain slot, and I still wouldn't move to Florida, and I am certain most folks living in Florida feel the same about where I live, but like I said that's what makes life grand!



Back to the OP though . . .

I think the post showing the 1 year position is very interesting. First I think the SFO numbers won't hold, but I find the EWR 320 number interesting. I would guess with 9 more planes comin in 2016 and perhaps another 10 to 15 additional after that it looks like that might be the fastest moving position. I would note that on the captain's side EWR320 is ever so slightly senior to EWR737 so I don't think it's a reflection on bad trips. In addition, I've flown Boeing's my whole career, but if I were starting out and had a choice my preference would be Airbus because the cockpit is much much nicer and the workload is way less because the automation is infinitely higher on the 320 versus the 737. Tough choices for sure, but all good choices to have!!



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I disagree about SFO, lots more unfilled bids there, difficult commute for anyone east at all. It will continue to get more and more junior on the junior seats. Looks like LAX is gonna start getting pretty junior as well.


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I just finished Indoc and got EWR 320. I sure hope it grows fast as I am commuting from CLT.

Welcome! Wear your half wing proudly and enjoy free beer and meals.

I was hired last April and am bidding about 40% in EWR on the 320. You're in a good spot. Welcome aboard!

Thanks....looking forward to it. Any recommendations on crash pads?

Thanks for all the great information folks. I'm warming up to the idea of STL-EWR and STL-LGA commutes actually being easier than STL-ORD....an extra hour+ each way but likely full-size commuter-friendly WN birds with perhaps fewer overall commuters?

I've been bouncing back and forth on 320 vs 737 still. An EWR 320 FO new hire bud who only hit IOE in late October just notched his first hard line for Feb and is a crazy ~80 of 155 (~55%) base seniority already, however at his overall company seniority while he'd be about 10-20% lower EWR 737 seniority he'd also be holding a line there as I looked at that Feb bid package. Looking at the EWR 737 lines vs. EWR 320, there are some rougher 737 redeyes and transcons (5-6 hr blocks) but guppy books almost 10 more hours (~86 vs. 76) and 20-40 block hours of international time...that's an extra $1,000.mo before dinner/bar tabs. The standard EWR 320 trips look like 3-days with 2-hops that average closer to 2-3 hour flights each and overnight in smaller cities....looks like a decidedly "easier" flying schedule than the 737 and a couple more days off too.

I'm thinking the other variable is how long I'd want to remain in either narrowbody out of the gate. I think there will perhaps be stronger movement in the 320 during 2016 with all the new A319s delivering, but if I'm thinking 2-3 years the 737 could overtake the bus when all the 2017 -700 deliveries begin? Am i right that the 2 x -900s (Jan & Feb) are the only guppy fleet gains for the rest of 2016? If we don't move to a domicile in Summer '17, I definitely won't vacancy bid bigger equipment until I can hold a line as a commuter.

It may be a coin toss on ball night....first world problem right?! Looking forward to a great career at United. Thanks again, BK

If it's a coin toss, toss that coin toward the bus.

I agree with James. Take the Bus.

One quick added thought. Don't look too hard at the trip side of the equation. A few months back EWR320 was doing a lot of island international flying and had higher time lines. The way marketing is running the airline these days, you're likely to see the flying completely change every few months no matter what fleet you're in.

This.

If you only chase the "flying" (layovers, city pairs, etc.) you're gonna get burned.

FWIW, I'm senior enough in my BES that I typically bid by trip number/date and very consistently get my first "choice" in PBS. The downside: my actual flying varies wildly based on the variables of trip construction in the bid package each month.

Great inputs all...thanks again. I just spent a bunch of time chatting with my EWR 320 FO friend today and I think he has this former USAF 737 guy ready to try a stint driving a bus named fifi....sounds like the 320 Chief Pilot & team at Newark really works hard to make it like family and take care of the newbies. Smaller fleet but with up to 20 Air China A319s inbound in the next year and others bidding out to widebody, it sounds like movement should remain solid. Cheers, BK
p.s. Any early prognostications on how a brand new fleet integration like the A350-1000s will shake out in 2018? I'd imagine super senior right from the initial cadre....anyone with experience on how United operationalizes a new airframe?

It will be bid by straight seniority.

Considering that it is in the highest pay band and is the supposed replacement for the 747, a reasonable guess would be to expect the routes that the 747 flies after a short period of domestic hub-to-hub MX shakedown and pilot OE flying.

So yes, it will go senior due to the killer combination of pay and productive international trips.

One big difference in EWR for 737 vs 320 is the number of LGA trips.

The 737 has roughly 10% LGA trips while the 320 is over 60%.

I've been flying the line in EWR since late April on the 737 and have not done a single LGA trip. A friend hired two months earlier on the 320 is flying two to three LGA trips per month even though he freezes all LGA trips in the lowest pool.

If you take EWR, you GOTTA go with the 737. Hands down some of the best flying around. 24 layovers at warm beach Caribbean destinations. I miss it! Flew the 737 at EWR for a few years and now on the bus to shed the whole commuting ugliness. The Bus is by far a superior plane to fly and work environment. But man, those trips outta EWR on the 73, almost makes you forget the crappy crashpad you're hanging out in, or spilling your meal when you hit some turbies, or the joy of having a jumpseater stuffed up there with you on a transcon.

A vacancy bid closed this week and left over a dozen spots open on ORD 737.

Saw that!.....a little surprised myself

Don't if the OP is still hangin' around, but I just looked at the flights from ORD to STL. I'm not sure how that can't be a perfect commute. There are a ton of flights and half are on American mainline MD80s. Now I hate commuting on the MD80 in the jumpseat 'cuz you gotta sit in the Gynecologist's chair, but is there some reason to discount the MD80 on American? Are there a ton of ex-TWA folks commuting or something?

Just wondering what might impact STL-ORD that hasn't been mentioned because honestly now that I look at the number of flights and see that there are a ton of mainline AA flights, it seems like a "slam-dunk".

What am I missing?

I am a STL commuter. While on paper it looks good, it really isn't as easy as it looks. In fact there are some that drive it all the time and don't bother with trying to fly (4.5 hrs is a little much for me to do twice a week). There are good and bad aspects of it. The good being that there are a lot of flights so if you miss one there is usually another one leaving shortly.... The bad thing is there are a LOT of commuters. I've shown up at AA and been #7 on the jumpseat list. Our UAX flights are a mix of 50 and 70 seaters and are often oversold. Plus on the short flights the 50 seaters are often weight restricted, meaning no jumpseat. Plus GoJet and TSA both have bases in ORD and STL so there is often someone else who will have jumpseat priority. There also seems to be a lot of last minute PS travelers added. I end up riding AA more than us but there we are the bottom priority of course.... All that being said the only time I've not made it to work is when ORD was melting down with wx and usually it was that basically every flight cancelled. I also commuted to IAD for a while which was way worse. Never done the EWR commute but it seems like getting anywhere out of STL is becoming more difficult bc of so much 50 seat lift. I would still choose ORD due to the number of flights,having MD80s on AA, and being able to drive when in a pinch... But don't expect it to be quite as easy as it looks.