WWJD?
 

So we find ourselves descending and encounter light to moderate turbulence. What would Jose do?

1) Continue in vnav descend now or path at 1000 fpm and get the snot kicked out of you.

2) Utilize vnav speed or God forbid, lvl chg,
and expeditiously exit the level of turbulence?

While we're on discussion, do we haul *** thru turbulence or slow down for dental filing preservation?

Obtw, when climbing and the dispatcher says in writing you will climb at CI 120. It really is ok to reef it back to .78/280 for turbulence.

I only ask because this is not a one off experience but a continual eye roll. Rant over.

ditto

see this ^ all the time

WWJD?
 

I sense sarcasm!

Deviation from FOM and/or FM in non-emergency situation!

Reading threads like this makes me miss the 727. And hold off on upgrade.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...GtC7Jc-pAlkBBU

There is no sarcasm intended. There is deviation and then there is just plain effing airmanship. Passengers don't pay for this.

The most beautiful wing ever invented.

When keying the mike, pushing buttons on the MCP, or push/pulling the yoke: I like to think I've got a cabin full of my mom. She's 78 years old.

I like to do and say things nice and easy because she has no idea what we're doing up here, is pretty nervous about it all, and if it wasn't for people like her back there I wouldn't get to sit up here.

Climb page, L5 (Max Rate), works well too.

... I am sure you mentioned something about your strategy to minimize turbulence. What a great opportunity for mentoring and discussion.

Frankly, I'm tired of talking about it. Hence the rant. This isn't strategy, this is airmanship 101.

What fleet is this? Because the guys I fly with (756) are extremely reasonable---and cautious---when it comes to turbulence, speed, and in particular, F/A safety.

Well-said, Sir Winston. I also imagine that all 200 or so of my "Moms" carry my allowance money, and dole it out only when I do my chores properly....;)

Doesn't the FOM cover this?

1: Safe,








2: Comfortable,















3: On Time,



4: Efficient.

In that order. And hopefully somewhere near that magnitude.

It's all those ex mil guys. When you're only carrying boxes or bombs who cares what the ride is like. Haha

For the record that was sarcasm from prior enlisted aircrew.

That's cause all the "sweaties" just love the "E-ticket ride"......😉

We train them to be little SOP robots. Individual thought and good common sense flying is discouraged. So don't be surprised if they take a bit readjustment once they get to the line.

So what's the answer here? Serious question.

I don't fly at redline

Serious answer, click off the autopilot, and fly the plane.


The 777 it's getting to be an epidemic. Auto pilot on. Even though it's doing something you don't want it to do. They don't know how to anticipate the automation to keep it from doing something they don't want, and then they continue to diddle the knobs in wasted effort and in vain to make it do something else than what they've programmed...I've had numerous cohorts tell me I have to have the autopilot on above FL180. Know the rules. But then again, these are the dweebs that put the AP on at 200' in the first place. I place a large part of the blame on TK teaching to the lowest common denominator.

Seriously, just one, maybe two clicks of the little red button..

That needle ball airspeed stuff still works pretty good. That, and Pitch + Power = Performance, uphill or down.

http://xplanereviews.com/uploads/mon...691721cd5b.jpg

No TV's on this old gal.

I'm too busy making the new, ridiculous call-outs to worry about such trivial things like turbulence. Missed 2 radio calls while the F/O blathered out what the display indicated going into LA the other day. Thank god for the get out of jail free card at the end of the procedure that allows you to "suspend" the inane nonsense which I now do from takeoff to touch down.

What toolbag came up with this crap anyway?

These people really exist?
:eek:

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...mentID/1030486


flightsafety.org/files/flightpath/EPMG.pdf

Didn't read the whole thing, but making FMA callouts only tells you part of the story... what mode is engaged. Suppose the automation isn't working as advertised? I worry we're training to "...well, the FMA had all of the correct annunciations on and the CVR had the correct callouts right before they plowed into the approach lights." I'm all for appropriate FMA callouts and as much cross fleet standardization as possible, but eventually flying planes is about physics and the actual energy state of the aircraft, not what mode is engaged. "Bro/Sis... you're slow" and/or Bro/Sis... you're low" and aggressive correction would have prevented any of the mishaps mentioned in the document.

This.

I commute quite often in RJ jumpseats and this is horribly prevalent. I've seen some downright scary situations with furious knob turning and butting pushing to try and fly the airplane getting further and further behind the airplane, when looking out the window and handflying could've corrected everything in a matter of seconds.

Yup.

I saw this all the time flying (and instructing) the bus as the hardest thing to do on that bird is a visual approach with the AP on. Meanwhile with a couple clicks and some pilot stuff it's a piece of cake.

I'm certainly not saying that FMA callouts replace situational awareness and airmanship. But they do answer the question "what's it doing now?" and when the autopilot is on, that's where SA starts(not ends!) All that furious button pressing and knob turning should tell somebody they're operating at the wrong level of automation for the flight conditions.

As far as the FMAs having the correct annunciations, that's pretty much the whole point. The didn't have the correct annunciations and nobody noticed in all the accident and asap reports in the flightsafety report. The accident chain for UPS1354 started with a failure to recognize the FMAs were not in agreement with the crew's intent.


But I'm also on board with the idea that the VVM SOP is there to help us understand what the plane is doing, not to replace understanding of what the plane is doing, but that sometimes compliance does not lead to comprehension.

So you're said toolbag. :D

Just kidding. My point R3 is that there's so much talking and pointing going on that radio calls and actually flying the aircraft are taking a back seat to VVM'ing. That, IMO, is less safe than it was before the January edict and as PIC, I'm using my authority by suspending it from takeoff until landing. Bulletin says I can do so, and I will.

How's about just looking at the FMA's like we've always done and if it's incorrect, do something about it? We're micromanaging every aspect up there and this ridiculous procedure isn't helping.

And yes, filed an FSAP explaining the missed calls and my dissatisfaction with said procedure.

Buddy of mine told me a funny quip about this nonsense. He's Captain and pilot flying with the AP on. They're well away from the terminal area, but not at cruise.

ATC says, "turn right to XXX".
PNF F/O responds to ATC.
Captain stabs the HDG knob and spins it.
Plane turns.
Long pause.
F/O shouts and points..."you're in Heading".

The 777-300 accident In Dubai last summer appears to have been caused by a lack of any go around power application until it was far too late. TOGA switches inhibited at touchdown, flap and gear retraction initiated while still at idle thrust. Was the pilot's "muscle memory" of actually pushing the thrust levers forward himself gone?

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicat...-%20A6-EMW.pdf

I've seen the A/P turned on at 100 AGL in a Landings class. Just wow.

Well said. We're all onboard with VVM, CRM, etc., but this new procedure is just talking to talk, and is taking away from situational awareness, not enhancing it. I've been on arrival into DEN when the AP in VNAV PATH decided it was just going to blow through our next altitude, probably because it decided the only way to make the one after that was to blow through it. Everything was right on the FMA, but we had to fall back on SA to prevent an altitude bust. I don't think the FAA would have given us a break just because we made all the callouts and the FMA showed the mode we wanted.

Airbus FCOM (from Airbus) procedures have the PF calling out every FMA change. I thought it was silly, but after a few months, I noticed a distinct reduction in the amount of mode errors, or they were caught almost immediately.

I am not sure it is a bad idea, and I kind of miss it.

Unfortunately the robots I was flying with turned on the AP at exactly 100' after TO every time. The manual said that was what to do. LOL.

Hold on there Tonto,

I flew the bus for 7 years and I don't ever recall reading that. I typically turned the AP on when it suited me, or the current workload. And 90 percent of the time that was somewhere above 18,000'. I was never advised that I was busting SOP. Pretty darn sure I wasn't as plenty of Captains flew the plane throughout the climb as well, and then turned it off again for landing when still many miles from the runway.


From the FM
3.10.6 Normals

Autopilot Operation
The use of the autopilot is encouraged in high traffic areas, when operating in
RVSM airspace, and other situations in which hand flying may cause a high
workload for the other pilot. The PF may engage the autopilot or call for it to be
engaged by the PM as desired. Use of the autopilot is required for:
• Autoland approaches
• PRM approaches
• Nonprecision approaches when the reported ceiling is less than 1000 feet
or the visibility is less than 3 miles
FCU/MCDU INPUTS

Probe is talking about the Airbus factory issued FCOM.

Many foreign airlines, as well as some smaller operators, fly strict Airbus procedures while most major US airlines, including UA, write their own FMs to maintain "company" standardizations across fleets.

THIS ^^

Other than the US airlines I would dare to say the REST of the world operates the Airbus the FCOM "Airbus" way. It is designed for 250 hr pilots and rightfully so from what I have seen overseas.

Korean Air used the Airbus procedure to call out every FMA change regardless of altitude or phase of flight. It was a bit annoying if you ask me.

My feet and fingers got cold just looking at the picture. The art of the three finger start. BAM!

We need to start acting like pilots and not like we're flying a sanitary simulator with a dude and a clipboard sitting behind us. Think. Thanks to all who made some very astute comments. I'm all for sop, fom, and fm but they do offer us latitude in a safe operation.

Regarding FMA callouts, if the company says so, then we should. We might not agree but if you think it's a pain now, just wait until you crawl into the simulator next time. I do find it ironic that there is such concern to verbalize FMA's during critical phases like cruise and top of descent, but not flare, idle, rollout during an an autoland when the jet is 30' off the runway and you can't see bupkis.

"MAN FLX SRS RWY" baby!!!

Is that a -6?

Yep. It's a computer image however, so off a bit.