The 76 does the work horse flying in Asia and Europe - meaning the shorter, multi leg hub type flying covering regional areas in respective theaters. To get crews to/from those airplanes in theater, they have to DH or CML (paid tix) people around.

The 74 is the trunk route plane, long hauler, however you want to think of it. Much less DH/CML into or out of position than the Z because of this.

There are limited exceptions to both.

Trips between fleets are different because of the type of flying they do. On Z you’ll DH into theater then do hub flying during the week, most of the weekend off, then second week of hub flying before DH’ing back home. Thus, 2 week trips very common. Eg. Monday start with DH to PHL. Tuesday PHL CDG CGN. Now flying nights in Europe (afternoons on us time) Thur night CGN STN, Fri STN CGN MAD, Fri night MAD CGN weekend layover. Following week start Sunday night (Mon am): CGN-MAD, day l/o, then MAD CGN-BCN VLC l/o (day). Same hub stuff next few days laying over in BCN, BUD and CGN Thursday night. Fri night head home time, leave CGN 2am - STN PHL (DH or operate) landing around 8am. CML home whenever you want. Lots of 15hr layovers during trip. Note: you stayed on US day time zone most of your trip

74 is long strings of around the world trips like (SDF HNL HGK DXB CGN SDF) that can be anywhere from 8-14 days long. They have ocean loops: SDF HNL SYD ICN ANC SDF or out and backs: ANC ICN SZX ICN ANC or SDF CGN DXB CGN SDF. Lots of 24hr l/o’s causing continuous circadian flipping. I found Z way less fatiguing than 74 but you work a heck of a lot harder.

Anyway, on Z you are often DH/CML’d into/out of position to get to the flying because it’s the 74 crossing the oceans. The Z tends to have longer trips keeping you in theater while the whale has a lot of variety in trip length (less desirable for commuters…?). It takes 2 days to DH to/from Asia so Z guys can deviate and get a couple more days at home making those trips only 11-12 days = even more palatable.

Schzing! There’s UPS intl flying in a nutshell.

Where’s the “like” button? Thanks for that write up.

Is there any difference in pay on the 74 vs Z for a typical 12 day trip, respectively? I’d assume per diem would be similar, but how about the int’l overrides and credit hour build up, etc? Perhaps Z pays less on the paycheck, but you’re also gaining status on all of those long CML’s, which are business (first?) class. Maybe not CH for CH, but never hurts my feelings to be in the back watching movies while getting paid as if I was up front in uniform. Any other pros/cons come to mind in that regard?

FTV’s post is not wrong but it leaves out the experience a newhire will have. Looking at the Z bid pack now over a 1/3 of the lines don’t even see Asia or Europe. They are a hodgepodge of domestic , Canada , Mexico and reserve lines that are rarely if ever 2 week trips. And certainly have little CMLs or deadheads. In the last award on the z it took about 3 years seniority to hold the last 2 week on/off trip and it wasn’t a pretty one. Junior on the 747 isn’t much better. Either fleet junior you will end up on some mostly uncommutable lines. Maybe 5 trips a month and you won’t be getting the long reserve blocks because those go senior. Mid seniority it gets better but tons of domestic FOs bid over to the Z as soon as they get some years under them making seniority progression much slower than other fleets. Just something to think about

As flyguy said above don’t plan on that schedule for a long time. He gave an example of the most senior trips in the company. Also something to consider. It is not uncommon for the company to reschedule you, especially on Asia commercials. One minute you have a sweet business class seat getting home early and the next you are operating all the way back to SDF. All for a 2 hr premium.

And no deviating on reserve. Food for thought.

there are some dudes that used to fly for Cathay that still commute to HK. From what I hear from some of them, is that are trying the hardest to move back state side.
from personal experience, DO not count on doing what you are planning. After 2 years I only had 1 DH to HK and that was due to my flight canceling, which is rare. Most commercials are to ONT or Hawaii. And even those are super rare for junior pilots.
schedules in anc are horrible for junior pilots. Plan on doing 4-6 commutes a bid period. And if you are on reserve maybe a little less commuting. Also don’t count on the whale. UPS hires into fleets for no apparent rhyme or reason. We have Miami guys being sent to anc and anc guys sent to sfd. They really don’t care where you live, they will put you where they want.
if there is any chance u can move to base, you will be doing yourself a massive favor.
Schedules for junior guys are really not commuter friendly on most fleets, much less anc.
keep ur expectations low and everything will go smoother.
just my two cents. And if you Z plan on being on reserve for a VERY long time, and flying mostly Zmestic trips.

If you live in base on the 75/76 fleet is it possible to do the turn lines and theoretically rarely sleep outside your own bed?

Yes it is...on the airbus also..many do it

That and reserve are the biggest benefits to living in base. Morning turns are kinda rough though. Show between 12-3 and end between 9-12. Guys with young kids seem to typically bid them.

Also expect 3-4 years of seniority before you can hold them.

I've had 7 overnights this year. Barely maintaining my Hilton Honors Silver status. Worth it.

Amazing... thank you so much for explanation.

I did but I am in the bottom 10% and hold these consistently: may I introduce you to VTO and VTORs. Fantastic option for bottom feeders especially if they don’t need specific days off and can just risk whatever is thrown at them. Note: these don’t fall all the way down so you need some bodies below you to start holding them, not all the lines put out are good.

Also, I was explaining the differences between the Z and 74 international flying, not what a newb can hold. Z bids are a mix of domestic and international and even the week on week off domestic on Z goes quite senior. It’s a senior fleet in both seats for good reasons.

To start, no intl trips on Z are 12 days. They are almost all 14 but you might have the option to deviate on a given trip where you can actually be away from home for as little at 11-12 days. Alternatively, you could be rescheduled to return home late and be gone 16.

Pay: perdiem and intl override are the same between fleets. I’d guess Z trips pay slightly higher credit on average for a 14 day trip but probably very similar for an average monthly credit. That will fluctuate over time as well. ANC (74) has a lot more conflict opportunities: first, they can’t backfill ANC conflicts AS EASILY as Z conflicts in SDF. Second, 2 aqp’s (recurrent training) per year provide an extra conflict per year vs 1 on Z. 3rd, always new bodies going into ANC = training displacements.

Noticeably more CML/DH positioning and depositioning on Z vs 74.

I think most people look at schedules, QOL, their preferred niches vs what pays the most on average. The guys killing it live in domicile, bid reserve and don’t get called then pickup JAs on days off, or same with displaced for training and then there’s the conflict *****s. The desperate fly their lines and pickup extra: working harder not smarter….

How senior do you need to be to hold intra asia trips as 74ANC? impossible as a new hire?

Almost every ANC trip starts with an Asian destination or Louisville followed by an Asian destination. So if you want Asia, it is easy to get—especially if you like HKG, SZX, PVG, ICN or NRT.

Night/AM turns seem to go pretty junior on the FO side in ONT. I’d imagine the traffic in the AM is part of the reason. The other reason is some of the turns are rough, (ONT-GEG-BOI-ONT) in the middle of the night. There’s also Hot Standby (ready reserve) if you want to take your chance at being home a little more. It seems to go junior on the FO side in ONT also. I’m not sure about SDF or MIA. It was good for the last 1 1/2yrs. Now I wouldn’t bet on it being easy.

I just came back from an 11 day trip (extended to 12) as a Z FO, and I have a 7 day Europe trip next week. There are some shorter international trips on the Z.

Ball park how senior do you need to be on the domestic sdf 75/76 fleet to get a cml on the front or back end of trips…. And even both ends… thanks!

about 50 percentish though the postal flying has reduced commercials somewhat so who knows how that will play out. Currently 2021 hires can hold mostly commercials if they choose to. Of course they were in the middle of a bigger hiring wave than we can expect in the near future. Also UPS can and will remove commercials week of and then you’re on your own to get from Base to back home

Speaking of working harder or not... How long were your layovers on the 11 day trip? (Or, how many legs did you operate or dead head which paints a picture either way? Your next European trip has decent layovers and/or lots of operating legs? Just wondering. Thx!

Europe Z trips are mostly a crossing. Then weekday CGN night sort flying consisting of usually 3 to 4 legs a night with 12-14 hour day layovers. Then a weekend in CGN. Then more weekday 3-4 leg nights. Then a crossing home. Crossings are sometimes commercials (rare) or company deadheads or you’re operating.

To expand on flyguy’s post: Europe sort flying is busy. It’s go-go-go, get to hotel, sleep, eat, exercise, maybe quick minute for yourself, then right back at it. Don’t get to see much of the layovers, you only have a couple of hours at most. Usually fly back into cgn Fri night then off until sun night (mon am). Staying on US time zone is nice but you end up mentally tired out by the end of the week. The pace on the whale is way, way slower and you have ample breathing time even though you’re wiped from the circadian flips…

Also, Europe flying goes senior. Much less trickle down of EU trips to the junior as compared to Asia flying. I find the Asia flying easier for the most part as well.

^^^^^Thanks, great perspective on life on the road at this outfit!^^^^^

then how about intra Asia trips look like in terms of layover and operating legs wise?

For starters, in Asia there’s multiple hubs and you end up flowing between them. Flight times are longer (not doing short Western Europe hops) so there’s less legs in pairings and per duty day. Duty days seem longer in Asia trips as well. You’ll get more DH’ing in Asia trips.

You’re also on a different body clock. In Europe you usually show around late afternoon EST time (9pm EU) and finish around midnight to 1 am (6-7am EU). Asia you start around 9 am EST (9pm Asia) and finish around 6pm (6am Asia). For me, in Europe, I don’t stay up very long after getting to the hotel and I’ll wake mid afternoon which works good for getting an hour or more of sunlight doing something outdoors / exercise. in Asia I’ll stay up much longer than EU but it’s wasted time because you’re at the end of your day but stores and other things aren’t open yet. It’s also too late to exercise. Go to sleep closer to midnight (noon in Asia) and I usually wake up early evening = scramble for food before van time.

That’s the thing with UPS: anything good is always served with 2 sides of something bad. You just cant have a clean win.

Of course this is anecdotal, but my Asia trip started with a 2 day commercial to Japan, which I condensed to 1 day by taking a direct flight. The trip had 10 legs (2 to 3 per night in Asia) and ranged between about 15 hours to 53 hours rest between duty periods. And the trip ended with deadheads on company metal all the way back to SDF.

My Europe trip was only crossings.

Thats the best summation of our schedules I have ever heard.

What sort of seniority level gets you these trips? I would be planning on commuting from Japan so this would be ideal for me.

I have been here almost 4 1/2 years, not quite halfway up the seniority list in this seat/domicile.

I’ve had even better Asia trips than that in the bottom 10%. VTO’s and VTORs. You have no control over the days, where you go, etc but beats the alternative: base line trips or reserve A.

Seniority to hold any full Asia or Europe flying lines is up there, pure Europe usually going the most senior between the two. Quicker on the whale to hold intl flying.