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Old 02-26-2012, 11:32 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default How is the AA BK different from the others?

I need some good, objective opinions on this question. As you all know, it is nothing but doom and gloom over here regarding what's headed our way. I have always been one of the VERY few optimistic ones that think AMR will turn around and prosper into a world class airline within a few years.

OK, please give it to me straight:

1. USAir, UAL, DAL, NWA pilots: Was it pure doom and gloom when you guys got issued the initial 1113 term sheet?

2. Were your initial 1113 term sheets as bad as ours? Especially Scope: as I recall, every airline BK term sheet had massive scope concessions, but out of all of them, only UAL furloughed (737 fleet parked): everyone else recouped and started hiring again or are now hiring. How is it that Delta pilots got massive Scope concessions in BK and yet started hiring again shortly after??

3. Was there a massive rush for the door when you guys first read the term sheet?

I'll tell you: there are an amazing amount of AA pilots that want out: just look at the China job fair in MIA last week. TONS of guys are burned out and want nothing more to do with AMR. Guys here are convinced that AMR is done, will be sold off in pieces. But my question is, why? How is our BK different than anyone else's in the past? UAL did not get sold off. USAir did not... NWA merged with Delta. Why would AMR get sold off? Why wouldn't AMR exit BK like everyone else and start being profitable again like everyone else? Start hiring again and growing like everyone else?

I guess the jist of my question is:

1.How and why are we so drastically different than everyone else that went through?

2. People are saying that if AMR's scope concessions go through, it will be the end of AA domestic and they will only be an Int'l carrier. But how come United, USAir, Delta, etc also got HUGE scope concessions but look at their domestic today - it's still there! None of them ended up as Int'l carriers only.

Serious and objective answers are appreciated!
Thanks,
73
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aa73 View Post
I need some good, objective opinions on this question. As you all know, it is nothing but doom and gloom over here regarding what's headed our way. I have always been one of the VERY few optimistic ones that think AMR will turn around and prosper into a world class airline within a few years.

OK, please give it to me straight:

1. USAir, UAL, DAL, NWA pilots: Was it pure doom and gloom when you guys got issued the initial 1113 term sheet?

2. Were your initial 1113 term sheets as bad as ours? Especially Scope: as I recall, every airline BK term sheet had massive scope concessions, but out of all of them, only UAL furloughed (737 fleet parked): everyone else recouped and started hiring again or are now hiring. How is it that Delta pilots got massive Scope concessions in BK and yet started hiring again shortly after??

3. Was there a massive rush for the door when you guys first read the term sheet?

I'll tell you: there are an amazing amount of AA pilots that want out: just look at the China job fair in MIA last week. TONS of guys are burned out and want nothing more to do with AMR. Guys here are convinced that AMR is done, will be sold off in pieces. But my question is, why? How is our BK different than anyone else's in the past? UAL did not get sold off. USAir did not... NWA merged with Delta. Why would AMR get sold off? Why wouldn't AMR exit BK like everyone else and start being profitable again like everyone else? Start hiring again and growing like everyone else?

I guess the jist of my question is:

1.How and why are we so drastically different than everyone else that went through?

2. People are saying that if AMR's scope concessions go through, it will be the end of AA domestic and they will only be an Int'l carrier. But how come United, USAir, Delta, etc also got HUGE scope concessions but look at their domestic today - it's still there! None of them ended up as Int'l carriers only.

Serious and objective answers are appreciated!
Thanks,
73
1. Yes.
2. Yes
3. After BK was filed, to the best of my recollection, it was too late to punt and get any of the bennies of early retirement. I am sure that sailing can correct my memory on that. From what I understand though, you have more of your retirement in your name than we did at DAL, so a rush for the door might be more doable there vice what we had at DAL. In our case though, most of the guys that left were going within a couple of years anyway.

I think that one thing that is different, and I am not sure of the specifics, but requirements for emergence are different. That is why DAL and NWA went when they did. As far as being sold off.. it is all RUMOR and SPECULATION. None of it means anything until you read it in the WS Journal...

As to number 2 in the "jist" section: This is just my opinion, but if AMR were to become an international carrier only (assuming that Eagle is NOT part of the equation), they won't last long as a stand alone even after BK. Look no further than what happened to Pan Am. An international carrier with no domestic feed is doomed. I don't mean to be scary in this regard, because what I am trying to say is that I think that rumor is bunk. Now... if AMR wants to make Eagle the majority of the domestic operation, and can get the scope "concessions" to do so, then that might be a distinct possibility. That is a bit disconcerting to me because of the downstream affect it can have in the rest of the industry.

Keep your chin up, BK sucks, because we are all control freaks, and what little control we DO have is gone. Maybe it is all just an illusion anyway..
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
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1. It's NOT that radically different. BK laws have changed, but I don't think it changes the outcome that much. Banking laws (Dodd/Frank) changes things quite a bit, along with the fact that lenders are much more cautious. However, BO, if he's still in office, is not interested in an airline of AMRs size liquidating. It would be devistating to his political capital. AMR has LOTS of political capital. If you look at where their major hubs are, and how much AMR has "funded" the politicos in those hubs. AMR had one the largest legal and lobbying departments in the industry. Having said that, Wall Street and the major banks aren't going to fund a major bailout unless big changes are made, and I think this includes more consolidation. Which leads me to ...

2. I'm often wrong about my predictions of this industry, but I think there will be a partial liquidation of AMR. Some assets will be aquired by other carriers, and there might be a merger (or two) in the offing. I don't that major scope concessions are necessary unless other economic concessions don't happen. I think Eagle is most likely history, but if APA wants to keep pay, retirement, and workrules they might give on scope, saving Eagle, but resulting in deeper furloughs.

Unfortunately, but realistically, there are as many different motives at AMR as there are employees. Older employees are worried about different things than younger. Likewise, senior vs. junior. You get my drift. I hope and pray that all have a plan B (or C) to fall back on. I was prepared for ATA to furlough me, but I was not foreseeing it liquidate. I didn't think anyone was that stupid to let it disappear. It's coming up on four years, and financially we haven't recovered. Prepare for the worst, but expect it to be exponentially worse.

Good luck.
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What pilot shortage?
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Now... if AMR wants to make Eagle the majority of the domestic operation, and can get the scope "concessions" to do so, then that might be a distinct possibility. That is a bit disconcerting to me because of the downstream affect it can have in the rest of the industry.
Thanks Hal and T square.

I quoted this part because I'm wondering if you Delta guys ever got the feeling that Delta wanted to run the entire Domestic operation with Delta Connection as AMR is hinting with Eagle?
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks Hal and T square.

I quoted this part because I'm wondering if you Delta guys ever got the feeling that Delta wanted to run the entire Domestic operation with Delta Connection as AMR is hinting with Eagle?

No, I never did. that being said though, AMR (corporation) has what seemed to an outsider to be a different relationship with Eagle than DAL management did with CMR or ASA.. at least until they bought them. DAL management learned that they could whipsaw the RJ carriers against each other when they are NOT part of the corporation, vice what they can do as a wholly owned subsidiary. It always seemed to me that we should have figured a way to get CMR on the seniority list, and we would have owned that flying (eventually) but management decided to cut their losses and divest them. AMR management has taken a decidedly different tack by keeping Eagle and whipsawing you two against each other. But a question for you as I have not studied the term sheets; Are they really trying to get the A319s at Eagle?
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
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No, I never did. that being said though, AMR (corporation) has what seemed to an outsider to be a different relationship with Eagle than DAL management did with CMR or ASA.. at least until they bought them. DAL management learned that they could whipsaw the RJ carriers against each other when they are NOT part of the corporation, vice what they can do as a wholly owned subsidiary. It always seemed to me that we should have figured a way to get CMR on the seniority list, and we would have owned that flying (eventually) but management decided to cut their losses and divest them. AMR management has taken a decidedly different tack by keeping Eagle and whipsawing you two against each other. But a question for you as I have not studied the term sheets; Are they really trying to get the A319s at Eagle?
Being at both OH and eagle, I can tell you the relationship between the mainline and wholly owned are 180 of each other. When I jump seat on DL now a days I still don't bring up OH, it just makes the flight to quiet.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:42 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aa73 View Post
I need some good, objective opinions on this question. As you all know, it is nothing but doom and gloom over here regarding what's headed our way. I have always been one of the VERY few optimistic ones that think AMR will turn around and prosper into a world class airline within a few years.

OK, please give it to me straight:

1. USAir, UAL, DAL, NWA pilots: Was it pure doom and gloom when you guys got issued the initial 1113 term sheet?

2. Were your initial 1113 term sheets as bad as ours? Especially Scope: as I recall, every airline BK term sheet had massive scope concessions, but out of all of them, only UAL furloughed (737 fleet parked): everyone else recouped and started hiring again or are now hiring. How is it that Delta pilots got massive Scope concessions in BK and yet started hiring again shortly after??

3. Was there a massive rush for the door when you guys first read the term sheet?

I'll tell you: there are an amazing amount of AA pilots that want out: just look at the China job fair in MIA last week. TONS of guys are burned out and want nothing more to do with AMR. Guys here are convinced that AMR is done, will be sold off in pieces. But my question is, why? How is our BK different than anyone else's in the past? UAL did not get sold off. USAir did not... NWA merged with Delta. Why would AMR get sold off? Why wouldn't AMR exit BK like everyone else and start being profitable again like everyone else? Start hiring again and growing like everyone else?

I guess the jist of my question is:

1.How and why are we so drastically different than everyone else that went through?

2. People are saying that if AMR's scope concessions go through, it will be the end of AA domestic and they will only be an Int'l carrier. But how come United, USAir, Delta, etc also got HUGE scope concessions but look at their domestic today - it's still there! None of them ended up as Int'l carriers only.

Serious and objective answers are appreciated!
Thanks,
73
PM sent to you sir.

TEN
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aa73 View Post
I need some good, objective opinions on this question. As you all know, it is nothing but doom and gloom over here regarding what's headed our way. I have always been one of the VERY few optimistic ones that think AMR will turn around and prosper into a world class airline within a few years.

OK, please give it to me straight:

1. USAir, UAL, DAL, NWA pilots: Was it pure doom and gloom when you guys got issued the initial 1113 term sheet?

2. Were your initial 1113 term sheets as bad as ours? Especially Scope: as I recall, every airline BK term sheet had massive scope concessions, but out of all of them, only UAL furloughed (737 fleet parked): everyone else recouped and started hiring again or are now hiring. How is it that Delta pilots got massive Scope concessions in BK and yet started hiring again shortly after??

3. Was there a massive rush for the door when you guys first read the term sheet?

I'll tell you: there are an amazing amount of AA pilots that want out: just look at the China job fair in MIA last week. TONS of guys are burned out and want nothing more to do with AMR. Guys here are convinced that AMR is done, will be sold off in pieces. But my question is, why? How is our BK different than anyone else's in the past? UAL did not get sold off. USAir did not... NWA merged with Delta. Why would AMR get sold off? Why wouldn't AMR exit BK like everyone else and start being profitable again like everyone else? Start hiring again and growing like everyone else?

I guess the jist of my question is:

1.How and why are we so drastically different than everyone else that went through?

2. People are saying that if AMR's scope concessions go through, it will be the end of AA domestic and they will only be an Int'l carrier. But how come United, USAir, Delta, etc also got HUGE scope concessions but look at their domestic today - it's still there! None of them ended up as Int'l carriers only.

Serious and objective answers are appreciated!
Thanks,
73

1. Yes, major Doom and Gloom, some bought it hook line and sinker and were ready to give away...everyting! Others (myself included) figured it was a 'negotiating tactic' to extract maximum concessions "Or DELTA WILL DIE!" Right, sure it will...

2. When I read your 1113 term sheat, I was surprised, it is MUCH better than what Delta threw at us. In fact, yours today is about what we finally ended up with, after about a year of 'negotiating'.

3. Delta's massive rush to the door came in the 12 months prior to our filing bankruptcy, because of our Defined Benefit, 50% lump sum payout option.

A lot of guys had over a $3 Million in total DB coming their way, and they knew, based on the history of Eastern and US Air, CAL, UAL, etc. that if they waited too long and Delta filed, it would all be gone. So to get half of their DB, they retired early, taking the 50% lump. But once Delta filed, that option was gone, so nobody left -after- they filed, they all left just before.

There were a few guys who figured out that if they got a Divorce first, and in the settlement, they gave their 50% lump to their Ex-Wife, they could also keep their jobs, and guess what, they could even buy a condo in Florida, live there, and 'visit' the wife back in their old home! Win Win!

One guy got caught when he remarried his ex wife, so he wouldn't have to pay for her medical coverage, he was fired. I read somewhere recently that a CAL pilot pulled the same stunt but got away with it, after it went ot court. Maybe some of the CAL guys can give the details.

AA's bankruptcy is no different than the others, except they are late to the party, so they get to dance with the fat chicks. All the pretty airlines have merged, so there ain't much left to choose from.

The one thing for certain, nobody on Wall Street cares what the AA Pilots think, and no amount of AA Pilot concessions can save the airline if Management has other ideas, ie. merger, or chop-shop. It's not all about the Pilots. Management is going to screw everyone. They are going to dump the leases in St. Louis, they got with TWA, they are going to 'restructure' all their debt. Screwing the Pilots is just icing on the cake, but you are not the only target here. So keep your chin up, go to work, fly safe, don't become a statistic because you will be distracted when talking about all this crap in the cockpit, no doubt.

I have a lot of very good friends flying for AA, I wish you all the best.
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:08 PM   #9 (permalink)
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AA's bankruptcy is no different than the others, except they are late to the party, so they get to dance with the fat chicks. All the pretty airlines have merged, so there ain't much left to choose from.
Agree 100% with the above. AA just seems to be a day late and a dollar (or, several billion dollars) short on everything. I can't think of one successful timely strategic move they've made in the past decade. Lots of bad ones and lots of late ones, though.

I appreciate you're attempts to stay positive, AA73. Must be difficult out on the line these days.

Good luck to everyone.
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Old 02-26-2012, 06:50 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Agree 100% with the above. AA just seems to be a day late and a dollar (or, several billion dollars) short on everything. I can't think of one successful timely strategic move they've made in the past decade. Lots of bad ones and lots of late ones, though.

I appreciate you're attempts to stay positive, AA73. Must be difficult out on the line these days.

Good luck to everyone.
Thanks Timbo, Mink, Ten and others who have responded.

Mink, actually it is very easy to stay positive on the line: I go to work with a smile on my face always aiming to have fun on the trip. And I do. Believe me, it spreads easily. But then again, I still greatly enjoy my job, taking the (not so shiny anymore!) jet flying on a 2 or 3 day trip.

Keep the replies coming if you can (UAL, USAir pilots, etc.)!
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