RunFast

TFI works fine if the oil and vinegar mix, and the Reservists aren't in a CAF associated unit. UPT, IFF, FTU, it's awesome, but classic associate in Ops units is a challenge because the bubbas aren't AGR and can't do chem training in civ status, etc. Just like the ART's down the street can't press the pickle button from 8k miles away....

beavf16

I guess I should change my login name to BeavT38 because I'm one of those dudes at an undesirable location who would have a hard time justifying to the old lady why I made her uproot and move to BFE for a pay cut and no retirement to look forward to.

hindsight2020

You're not the only one on that boat. I know several prior members of my unit who went chasing the AGR money at the UPT associate units. That AGR rug pulling must taste really bitter right about now. We all know they would have never entertained relocation to those dumps if only an ART were offered. I do think they'll stay though. The fam is probably tired of moving.

Anybody care to address the delta between O-4 AGR and GS-13 with pilot bump? 'Cause it seems to me that this is not really the bitter point, seems to me all the affected are really more concerned about the retirement question than the take home delta (ART money is taxed 100% vs mil paycheck AGR) between ART and AGR. Just thinking out loud.

beavf16

You're exactly right; it's not the pay, it's the retirement and the prospect that they can try to change the rules of the game when guys are so far into their careers.

Nortonious

Shoot, I ran the numbers awhile back (when I was younger and better looking). Can't find the spreadsheet, but I seem to recall at around a 14 year major, the AGR began to pull away. Throw in the $25k/yr pilot bonus and AGR crushes ART.

Pretty sure my assumption included 48 UTA's and 36 AFTP's as well as 5% matching on TSP, but unsure of how much AD/AT I included. An ART used to be able to pocket a lot of extra cash by double-dipping, but in the current MPA crunch might be hard.

If you run the numbers again, remember that whenever congress gives a 3.9% (for example) payraise to Civil Service, it often comes out as 2.9% with an average of 1.0% for locality pay. The GS-2181-13 payscale does not get a locality adjustment, they just get that 30% bump above the baseline GS-13 pay. So yes, over time, that 30% bump reallys amount to something less than 30% due to everyone else getting the benefit of the periodic locality adjustments.

BTW-If you run the numbers, I'd be interested in seeing them.

In this day and age, hard for to imagine realistically thinking I could hunker down as an ART for 30+ years to reach retirement at any location. With all the force structure changes, just as soon as you commit to something, the rules change.

Albief15

Also...no guarantees you can make it to 55 in an ejection seat aircraft. Getting old is a bear, and I know more than a few of us guys who thought we were bullet proof who went extended DNIF for various ailments. For me...I quit F15s after 20 when facing back surgery #2. Got a bunch of bros who've suffered other ailments as well. Getting to 40-45 without a major health event is a reasonable goal. Staying fit to fight until 55ish...well...might be a bit tougher with the law of averages.

reCALcitrant

I have have been a TR, an ART (GS-13), and now an AGR. AGR pay/benefits with or without the bonus kills the ART system. The big key is obviously the take home pay and the amount of days required to get all your money. Oh yea, I don't have to work till I'm 57 years old either. As an AGR, I don't work weekends. ART, not so much. I will say that the ART system can be pretty good if you have a good CC. If not (50/50 shot), it sucks. When I am done with this AGR tour, I will go back to my airline. I know there are many AGR's in the same boat as I am. I can't take mil leave from the airline for an ART job. I wouldn't if I could. My prediction is ultimately the jobs will be converted back because they won't be able to fill them. They will spend more on training a new guy every two years as they lose them to the airlines than they would to keep them AGRs. We shall see. Should be interesting to watch. Cheers.

Nortonious

I think you're right. Looks like the whole NSPS fiasco all over again...after a few years they'll turn it off. Who really pays the price for this myopia? The individual military member and the taxpayers (as opposed to the idiots who enacted these policies in the first place).

1Seat 1Engine

Beav, the real answer depends on what your goals are and what your other opportunities are.

I know plenty of guys who the ART system works great for. But they have different goals than me. The ART system provides a much better road for promotion and career progression if you're willing to fill your squares and especially if you're willing to PCS a couple times.

On the other hand, they're squeezing all the good deals out of AGR and TR jobs. AGR always sucked for promotion opportunities.

What do you want to do with your career? If you want to hunker down and be a major-for-life-in-place...that's getting a lot harder to do.

Greg

Heard a rumor today that AFRC wanted to convert all AGR jobs to ART Jobs by 2013. However AETC has some reservations about this.

I am one of those ARTS tired of working 60 hour weeks. AGR is HANDS DOWN a better deal. You make about 3 grand more as a GS-13 Step 1 ART (with bonus) than an AGR (with no pilot bonus) with everything taken into account (Matching Funds, Free Health Care, Taxes etc). However, you are not working a 60 hour work week and you can retire after 20 years.

I am considering going to a job that may not be as great as my ART job for the AGR prospects. However, I am not interested if they convert to ART or don't offer the bonus.

ACP rules still haven't been released. I hear the rules are getting tougher.