CBreezy

That's not true. If it was, AAG wouldn't be allowed to give a raise to all their unionized employees this last year. If an MEC chairman was approached by the company to accept a significant raise with a letter of agreement and he said, "no, we have to negotiate the whole contract," he should be hanged....or hung. Either one.

ClearRight

Do you have a source for this? I thought it was just last year they gave their pilots a pay raise.

WesternSkies

Discouraging pay will never kill this scourge alone. The banks own the vice clamps after years and years of pilots defaulting on loans coupled with the banking crisis. 10% wage increase will not open the vaults again. If the banks decide to lend again the training pipeline will be as full as ever.
Walmart anounced they are raising their min wage employees 20%, and just about 30% for those in states with only the fed min wage. WALMART?!? (The stock price took a 3% hit on the news) walmart - a company predicated on everything cheap. Strange things afoot.
In regards to raising first year pay, pilots need to get over their "where is my raise if they get a raise sandbox attitude." Priority number one is gettig first year pay indexed behind second year pay in accordance with the rest of the longevity increases. Simple. Then we can all move in lock step together.

Cubdriver

I did not hear the call personally but it was reported that on one of the company investor conference calls- I think 3rd qtr. last year, "shrinkage will occur before there will be a significant raise in pay for pilots", or some variation thereof, by the CFO.

ClearRight

Thanks for the info. I hope they reevaluate their position on this. Seems they may be doing so by the recent hiring bonus put forth.

Aksleddriver

Cbreezy, name the mec chairman or AAG group that would approve an increase just for first officers

NineGturn

I see this discussion and it seems almost everyone misses the main points of the problem. The problem is not starting pilot pay, it never has been.

Here's what happened....

A long time ago regionals were known as "commuters" and paid entry level wages to entry level pilots (with a couple thousand hours or so) to fly entry level airplanes...15, 19, 30 seat turboprops that fed smaller airports often with government subsidies known as Essential Air Service.

The commuters hired civilian pilots who already had multi or 135 time because these turboprop airliners were tough to fly and required actual piloting skill. They sometimes hired low timers but not as a rule. It was the best route to get to the majors for a civilian pilot and you could expect to start getting interviews after doing this for a few years. Pay was low but not as low as it is today. You could afford to raise a family and buy a house.

The big airlines saw this as an opportunity for cheap labor and developed the "code share" system and pushed for larger regional aircraft and eventually jets to be operated under this system of entry level wages. They perfected the carrot and stick approach of making this a desirable path and the easiest path to a major airline.

The big unions got in on the deal by trading scope for higher top end wages but ultimately it backfired because after 9-11 massive furloughs came forcing mainline pilots back to the regionals. Even top end wages faltered at the majors which are only now starting to slowly crawl back up.

Pilots got stuck at the regionals for long periods at very low pay flying advanced jet airliners.

The problem is the airlines got greedy and basically created so many entry level jobs that pilots simply got out of the business. As higher time pilots walked away or stopped applying their solution was to lower hiring standards to keep drawing more entry level pilots. Then Colgan happened and brought attention to the fact airlines were scraping way down in the experience pool far deeper than they had ever done.

Congress acted. The new regulations forcing higher time pilots couldn't have come at a worse time for the airlines who were already scraping the bottom of the experience barrel. Meanwhile there is still a large supply of pilots out there who could take those jobs but won't. So the RAA pushes a massive and expensive PR campaign to try to sway public opinion but Congress so far is standing firm...as they should in my opinion.

The problem is now regionals need experienced pilots but can't attract them fast enough primarily because higher time pilots don't want to start at the bottom with entry level wages so they don't bother.

There is nothing wrong with offering entry level wages for entry level jobs to pilots with almost zero experience. The problem is you can't staff an airline with all low time pilots. They need to turn these large regional airlines into pay scales that match the majors or they need to offer options to attract higher time pilots at higher pay while still offering entry level jobs at entry level pay.

Here's why seniority doesn't work at the regional airlines. A regional airline can be both a traditional stepping stone to build experience for entry level pilots and it can be a career option for more experienced pilots but it can't do that with seniority rules in place.

The way I see it the regional airlines will either die of labor starvation or they will change. Change can be significant downsizing and sending the large jets back to mainline where they belong until the next downturn or they can be restructuring the airlines to offer higher pay to attract and retain career pilots while reducing labor overhead. The best way to accomplish that is to restructure seniority rules.

The only way the regionals can change is if the big unions allow it and encourage it but that means the unions must change too. Unfortunately this is a mess everyone created and no one wants to accept responsibility for.

Aksleddriver

[/QUOTE]The only way the regionals can change is if the big unions allow it and encourage it but that means the unions must change too. Unfortunately this is a mess everyone created and no one wants to accept responsibility for.[/QUOTE]

sums it up

JamesNoBrakes

One thing would be to carefully document your time for a year, including all time spent doing things necessary for your job, like getting paperwork, going over the loads, preflight, guarding the cockpit/entrance, etc., then have your union take the airline to court to pay overtime, like this:

http://www.adn.com/article/20131023/...hourly-workers

Of course, you'd need deep pockets because the airline would throw everything they could at you, appeal after appeal, etc., but you could probably make a pretty good case for it at the regional level. Make them pay you for the time you are working and any overtime.

Course the union would never support this, which is why you don't really have a union. They don't really have any power because of RLA, so it's more of a dog and pony show.

ClickClickBoom

A basic understanding of what a CBA is and isn't would help. A little understanding goes a long way....
This is why pilots shouldn't practice law.