NineGturn

Setpropeller you're not supposed to duplicate your post in multiple threads...just a heads up. But at least we know you're human. A lot of the actual spammers in these forums use sophisticated software to hide multiple accounts and specifically target threads with inciteful discussions such as these to derail them.

It seems to me that a lot more pilots are starting to see the regional airline business model for what it really is...a scam by the unions and a massive B scale by management.

flynavyj

Do you really think it'd fix retention?

Raising pilot pay will help bring in new blood. But there's a percentage of the regional airline community that will never qualify to move onto the majors. Raising pay only costs the company more money to retain pilots who have no other options anyway.

Pilots jumping from one company to another is still a net win for the regional airlines and the major airlines that partner with them. The two biggest problems are: regional airlines that can't achieve turnover and become top heavy on the pay scale aren't competitive, and companies that can't find and recruit pilots.

If the regional model is going to work there either needs to be an increase in the number of available applicants or an increase in incentives to those applicants. You'd likely do this by narrowing the pay scale, bringing the bottom up and the top down...I can't imagine this happening, unless people are grandfathered in from the top of the scale...it'd be a tough sell none-the-less.

I'm sure people will say "you can't bring the top pay down!!! We're worth it" which is true...The top pay though may stagnate the pay for the majority of the workforce at the benefit of those few pilots who won't leave.

NineGturn

That's why I keep saying to eliminate the seniority system imposed by unions and management at regional airlines. It's the seniority system that creates this mess. Without seniority the airlines and pilots would have massive flexibility and it would force all regionals to offer similar and flatter payscales that are generally higher than they are now. They could simultaneously reduce training costs as well by not offering entitlement based upgrades and transitions. Pilots would be locked into their positions until they were able to be competitive.

Better pay, less movement, lower training costs. It would also allow a valid career path for older captains at regionals that don't want to start all over at a major. They would have higher pay and better conditions.

This would also force majors to hire first officers from the regionals without really needing or necessarily wanting PIC jet time to be an FO again.

JamesNoBrakes

If that's true, it's a huge safety problem and they shouldn't be flying for a regional (if they can't qualify for a major).

Steve McCroskey

I don't think getting rid of the seniority system is a great idea for current regionals. This industry is based on the seniority system and would require a complete and chaotic nightmare to implement.

I would suggest a existing regional starting a separate company and giving it a shot. I just don't think it is going to work due to the fact that nearly everyone that makes it through new hire is completely qualified to safely fly the plane s/he is qualified in. Proficiency is a whole new story that honestly cannot be evaluated well.

How would you rate pilots? Who has the best PA announcement and smile? Or who brown nosed the "grader" the most? I could honestly see that being the single most corrupt system the industry has ever seen.

Honestly, regional pilots are mainline pilots and the seniority system is the best way to provide order and prevent people abusing a merit based system.

Look at it this way. If all the regional seniority lists were stuck onto the bottom of the majors, would people be complaining the same? This would obviously require a change to the seniority system. 1st pay at $25/hour and 2nd at $40/hour with x% increases all the way to 25th year pay.

How about that idea? Would that be better? The gap between 1st year mainline FO and 2nd year FO would be eliminated since its now with the 1st-2nd year regional FO where it honestly should be. This would eliminate the top heavy regionals. It honestly would probably decrease the costs with the majors as far as crew pay is concerned because the extra 10 years added to the top of the payscale would be much greater than the 1-8 year upgrades at the regionals. Of course training would be higher but the regionals make it happen with a profit(mostly) and the majors due so it should equal out.

Of course you will have the regional lifer as mad as can be when he can't be in the top 10% of the seniority list for the top-of-the-scale-plane in less then a decade but they don't have to fly the big planes...there's a seniority list for every piece of equipment and seat. The exact same as the regional model without the baggage.

This honestly could happen but the merger of the seniority list will be a disaster unless something could be worked out so that current regional pilots will not be displaced from their seat by anyone currently on the mainline seniority list and vice versa. Only open slots can be filled until everyone in the new airline was hired after the merge and then its a normal RJ to 777/380/whatever equipment list.

Example: 25 year CRJ Cpt is number 1 on his equipment. He is paid the same as before but with the new merged lists and a whole bucket full of new equipment to think about flying. He can bid into the new equipment but only if there is an opening for it. The opening must be for a captain and he must start on the bottom of that planes list, no exceptions.

This would be the tricky part, who gets that bid? Maybe whoever is getting paid the most? Thoughts??

Lets say he wants the 757. He is being paid $100/hour now since he was maxed out at his regional for 10 years. He doesn't magically get the 25 year CPT pay of $240/hour. He starts out at $100 + X% as determined before. He stays on the 757 until he retires but his pay scale stops once he hits the 757's 25 year mark. Let's say that $100 + X% is year 5 on the 757 CPT scale so he can get a raise for 20 years at X% per year which would max him out on the 757 pay scale.

But here's the thing. This 25 year CPT is almost at the top of the CRJ scale and can bid whatever line he wants at the base he wants. If he moves to the 757, he would be at the junior base for it sitting reserve.

This would allow the content regional lifer to just sit in the left seat of the CRJ with absolutely no change in his pay or QoL, just like he wants it. But it allows for him to move on without starting at the rock bottom of the mainline, just on that piece of equipment making X% more than before.

Any new hires after the merge can bid whatever they want with their bid number since they would never bid ahead of anyone pre-merge. Just like a normal airline at that point.

Now the fun part is, the mainline guys maintain their overall seniority number within the old mainline list and that acts as a normal airline and the regional guys maintain their overall seniority with the regional list and that acts as a normal airline. Remember, no mainline FO can displace a regional FO. They start at the bottom of that equipment list. And no regional FO can displace a mainline FO. Whoever has the highest pay gets the opening.

If that 5 year mainline FO on the 737 wants that same 757 opening and is paid $102/hr, he gets the spot and is placed wherever his seniority number is respective to the other mainline pilots. Lets say its at 85% on the 757. He is now there, not at the bottom and he gets paid $108/hr, the current scale based on his years with the major.

Thoughts??

NineGturn

Yes it would be...but that's the point. The current system is a nightmare and it's killing the profession. You really can't make things worse.

But to make it work it would take an act of Congress because every regional would have to do it at the same time. Management would resist because they need seniority to keep labor costs down. ALPA would resist because they need seniority to control the pay scales at the very top of the lists.

It would require a concerted effort from the majority of regional pilots to take control of the unions away from mainline and management but regional pilots are afraid to upset the very people keeping their pay down because they think it may hurt their chances of being hired by a major down the road.

The whole system is so well implemented to keep pilots and labor under tight control it's very difficult to break. But until pilots can even recognize why it's a problem it's impossible to break.

The existing seniority system is the single most corrupt system ever.

This is the biggest myth ever. It's the myth ALPA spreads to keep control. Pilots are professionals and will always try to do a good job...it's in our nature. With a few exceptions that probably shouldn't be here anyway.

Proficiency can easily be measured. Foreign airlines do it. In Asia the instructors and check airmen answer to the regulating authorities over their own company. There are eight stages of first officer rankings. First Officers must progress through those levels in a systematic order based on experience and a series of proficiency tests to advance all the way to captain. A board of experienced instructors meets regularly and goes over the ranks one by one and decides who advances. The system is very unbiased and works well. There are no career "resets" due to changes in jobs and layoffs. There are no entitlement upgrades for low time first officers while high time captains sit right seat. Proficiency is measured objectively using computer analysis of flying accuracy. Other factors such as showing up to work on time and not getting dinged for other bad behavior count. It's not brown nosing it's called accountability.

Seniority is abused with entitlement upgrades and transitions. Merit based systems as I described above are far more objective and will put the best pilots in the left seat with the best pay.

The pilots who benefit the most from seniority are bad pilots or those that got lucky with timing.

The rest of what you described Steve seems to be either a national seniority list or integrating the seniority lists of regionals with mainlines. That would just give you more of the same.

In order to recognize the problem you have to understand that management uses seniority and regionals as a B scale for the majors with the full cooperation and blessing from the mainline unions. The mainline controls the regionals for their own purpose. Without seniority the whole thing would be impossible. You can't fix the system for pilots without eliminating seniority...there is no way around it.

BoilerUP

Calling merit-based upgrades "unbiased" is perhaps the most naive thing ever written on APC...and that's saying something.

If you don't like the American airline seniority system, you always have foreign operators (ask a former Cathay or ANA pilot their thoughts on the topic) or business aviation.

...and see for yourself just how "unbiased" it REALLY can be.

But the current system ain't changing, so whining theretofore is a waste of time and energy.

flynavyj

I don't feel it's ALWAYS a safety concern, but in some instances it is. Sometimes you're looking at people who have failed multiple training events...and in other situations, it's a guy who made a bad choice and got a DUI once. While this may not disqualify him for the majors, he definitely won't be a first pick for any of them. If the pool of applicants drops significantly, these QUALIFIED pilots may get a job with one of the legacy carriers, but if a job posting elicits 10,000 qualified and interested applicants...their name will be somewhere towards the bottom of the stack.

NineGturn

You would have to be speaking from a total lack of experience on the subject. I see plenty of people like you who would rather resort to name calling, insults, and inaccurate comparisons than engage in a discussion. If you have legitimate experience in working in a non seniority airline I would be interested in hearing your honest comments and opinions on the matter.

Foreign airlines and business aviation do very well without airline style seniority and don't have the pay issues of US carriers so that makes no sense. Also I say "airline style" because seniority does exist in most other industries but it's not the exclusive factor in determining hiring and advancement, it's used when all other factors are equal.

I noticed how you threw the word "American" in there even though you are defending the most un-American system of labor ever conceived. You are advocating a system of eliminating any incentive to excel or stand out as an individual or to advance beyond the minimum necessary skills to complete the job. It's very communist. I personally think American free market economics is a superior system and feel pilots would generally thrive in it.

I also think the people that defend seniority the most are afraid to compete along side their peers and would probably not do well in a free market economy.

Then I hope you're happy with a continually diminishing career and paycheck that was once great. Although if you can't see past your own wallet you will never know what you're missing and can live in blissful ignorance.

TalkTurkey

Which was probably the real reason comair was murdered. Top heavy.