No, you know what the Hawaiian pilots got out of the 1113 process? More than DALPA did.

How about this. As for their DB plan, it was frozen, They did not hand it over to the company. Specifically, in April of 2005 when they voted on this, they agreed to freeze the DB for all pilots under 50 years of age beginning in 2008. Back then, Hawaiian contibuted 17% right of the bat into their targeted DC plans that made everyone very close to being made whole.

Last October, when they signed a new contract, they booked pay gains of up to 22% and a defined contibution rate of 19.4% as well as 2.4% matching. Now they have been made whole.

So alfa, did Hawaiian get as you say "2 billion" in BK returns? No. Nor did they need to because they did not effectively lose any of their retirement. We here at Delta got cents on the dollar in return for giving up or pension. Your $2 billion sounds fantastic, but it is ludicrously imaginative to believe that the pilots at Delta obtained a comparable outcome vis a vis retirement with Hawaiian.

Quite frankly, DALPA was outmaneuvered in the 1113 process.

The question is why and how did this happen. Was it bad council from CSW? Bad negotiators? Did that victims mentality surface again? (Bemoaning and lament over the "they changed judges on us" justification) Or perhaps did they just plain blink? Point is, we can not let that happen again in C12k.

Again, "the axe forgets, the tree remembers." 12,000 trees here, give or take a few, want restoration.

(Actually met I guy last week from SLC who said he would be happy with 8%/4/4/4, therefore the "give or take" disclaimer.)

If DALPA does not listen to their contituents, I can't imagine that will be received very well.