Originally Posted by
TheManager
No, you know what the Hawaiian pilots got out of the 1113 process? More than DALPA did.
How about this. As for their DB plan, it was frozen, They did not hand it over to the company. Specifically, in April of 2005 when they voted on this, they agreed to freeze the DB for all pilots under 50 years of age beginning in 2008. Back then, Hawaiian contibuted 17% right of the bat into their targeted DC plans that made everyone very close to being made whole.
Last October, when they signed a new contract, they booked pay gains of up to 22% and a defined contibution rate of 19.4% as well as 2.4% matching. Now they have been made whole.
So alfa, did Hawaiian get as you say "2 billion" in BK returns? No. Nor did they need to because they did not effectively lose any of their retirement. We here at Delta got cents on the dollar in return for giving up or pension. Your $2 billion sounds fantastic, but it is ludicrously imaginative to believe that the pilots at Delta obtained a comparable outcome vis a vis retirement with Hawaiian.
Quite frankly, DALPA was outmaneuvered in the 1113 process.
The question is why and how did this happen. Was it bad council from CSW? Bad negotiators? Did that victims mentality surface again? (Bemoaning and lament over the "they changed judges on us" justification) Or perhaps did they just plain blink? Point is, we can not let that happen again in C12k.
Again, "the axe forgets, the tree remembers." 12,000 trees here, give or take a few, want restoration.
(Actually met I guy last week from SLC who said he would be happy with 8%/4/4/4, therefore the "give or take" disclaimer.)
If DALPA does not listen to their contituents, I can't imagine that will be received very well.
Prove that Hawaiian got more. The lost value of our qualified defined benefit plan that was not covered by PC-3 and PC-4 was $900 million. We got back $450 million from the PC-5 recovery. We got $650 million from the note. We got $1,300 million from the claim. So how did we not get back the value of what we lost?
$900 miilion versus $450 mm + $650 mm + $1,300 mm
Which is more?
Hawaiian gets "up to 19.4%" not a flat 19.4% so I am pretty sure it's a targeted plan like the former NW pilots have now. Their new hires get 15%. Their A-330 pay rate is about $14 an hour less than ours. I am not trying to knock Hawaiian, but you tell a story based on speculation and half truths if not outright falsehoods.
You are like someone that turns on a ballgame and there's a runner on third with the pitcher up. Pitcher bunts and runner scores. What's your plan now. Bunt on every play. Leadoff batter in 1st inning, bunt. Cleanup man with bases loaded no outs, bunt.
You fail to mention what happened to the NWA flight attendants when they voted no on their bankruptcy contract. They got steam rollered. Their contract was rejected, they were given an injunction against striking. Their lawyer at the time, pretty sure it was the DPA lawyer.
The same thing happened to all of the other groups that "went to the judge" in 1113. They got crushed.
When we signed our deal in bankruptcy, it was at the end of 8 months of negotiation. But I am sure that if we went for two more weeks, the company would have cratered. We didn't hand our pension over to the company, it was about 33% funded. You have heard this dozens of times yet you trot out this same emotional crap. Either you are dense or you just like to deceive people. There is no educated person that could look at that plan and not see how it was doomed from the day we entered bankruptcy. We were in liquidity shortfall, an event that happened so rarely all the actuaries involved had to look it up in their books to see what the heck it meant.
But hey, even though you know nothing about the financial situation at Hawaiian back then, you see them bunt and now you think the only play out there is to bunt. Great, let's bunt on every pitch.