Originally Posted by
reCALcitrant
Originally Posted by
TonyC
While the first word which came to my mind is a form of excrement, I am compelled by polite company to instead declare you are full of bluster.
Because you found it hard? Everybody does it, by definition, the worst AF pilot can do it.
Actually, everybody does not do it. I guess that blows your definition.
Originally Posted by
reCALcitrant
Originally Posted by
TonyC
When I went through Castle in the early 80s on my way to a receiver variant of the -135, I had an opportunity to spend one brief session in a facility specifically designed and dedicated to teaching receiver air refueling. The B-52 Air Refueling Part Task Trainer consisted of a dedicated building with a simulator, complete with realistic (for its time) visual, an array of supporting training devices and computer banks, all supported by a dedicated staff of technical support and maintenance, as well as schedulers and instructors. It was there where I got my first glimpse of A/R from the receiver end of the boom.
Yea, that thing hasn't been used since Castle closed. So must have been important.
They don't use the Life Support building at Castle for life support anymore, either. Does that mean you fly without oxygen and parachutes?
The ARPTT was built when standard simulators could not replicate the task. Today, the full-motion simulators with life-like visuals are up to the task. The task of air refueling is still taught in the same way, just in a different device.
Originally Posted by
reCALcitrant
Originally Posted by
TonyC
Ask yourself this. If receiver A/R was so dadgum easy, why did the Air Force invest so much money and resources into a device dedicated to teaching that task, and that task only? If it was so easy, they should have been able to teach the procedures in a classroom, and go practice it in flight on the first sortie.
Because the Air Force is stupid and wastes money.
Can't argue that statement, but it's not an answer to my question.
The answer is that the task is not so dadgum easy in a heavy, and if you put a brand new pilot in the seat with no prior simulator training, he might never get the first contact. Every refueling track has an exit, and they cost a ton of money. That's the same reason you train landings in the sim before you train them in the jet.
Originally Posted by
reCALcitrant
Originally Posted by
TonyC
I don't know what all the different communities do or have done in the past, or what they do today. I do know that in some airframes, copilots are not allowed to close beyond pre-contact without an Instructor who is specifically certified to instruct air refueling. Where I was, every aircraft commander could supervise copilot refueling. We did an awful lot of refueling -- rarely flying a sortie without it. Other folks had a hard time staying current. I would venture that the pilot flying in that video was on the low experience end of that spectrum. But whether you did it a little and struggled with it, or did it a lot and were very proficient -- it was hard, and dangerous.
Really? Hard, dangerous? We do it every day all over the country.
That doesn't prove it's easy. It only shows that we're good at it.
Originally Posted by
reCALcitrant
Originally Posted by
TonyC
Remember when B-52 pilots had to wear parachutes and helmets to A/R? Was that a measure taken for comfort, or did it recognize the hazard?
We still do. It's because it's considered a critical phase of flight by the Life support reg. Like landings, high level bomb runs with 30 degrees of bank, and Takeoff. Very dangerous stuff.
Those life support folks have a great union, don't they! They get to decide what's critical and what's not.
Originally Posted by
reCALcitrant
Originally Posted by
TonyC
CFIC -- Consolidated Flight Instructor Course, for KC-135 and B-52 Instructors. As long as the weather allowed, we all did the whifferdill while in contact. It was a confidence maneuver which demonstrated that the success of the aerial refueling had little to do with the attitude of the two airplanes -- bank, pitch, speed. Successful refueling depends on the smooth, stable platform provided by the tanker and the deliberate, steady inputs made by the receiver. If the receiver concentrated on the tanker, he would be surprised to see the strange horizon relative to the airplanes shown in the pictures.
I never said the whiff was easy, just AR. But certainly if you can stay on the boom at 90 degrees of bank, straight and level should be cake.
I'll give you the last word. I'm tired of discussing how difficult normal AR is. My opinion after doing it for 9 years in B-52's is that it is easy. Certainly if it's night, weather, and bad turbulence, it's harder, but day to day....not rocket surgery.
Your opinion, and the supporting rationale, is noted. Also noted is the best part of your argument with which you closed:
Originally Posted by
reCALcitrant
Last word is yours Toad driver.
That must make you feel swell to try to put others down.
I am now absolutely convinced of your superiority.
.