Originally Posted by
Nevets
How do you know what I know? I've flown at a non-union shop as well. Don't pretend to know what you don't know cause you look foolish when you do.
As for comair, just ONE example, do you honestly believe management would have given the pilots as much as a severance as they did if anything at all if it wasn't for ALPA?
I don't pretend to know anything and I really don't care what you know. ALPA is garbage, plain and simple.
Actually, it was you that said that ALPA is all I know, not me. So how is that not pretending to know about me when you don't? It was me who doesn't pretend to know about you and precisely why I asked what union you are part of. But of course you ignore the question.
I give you real life examples of what ALPA has done for the pilot groups you pointed out and your comeback is, I don't care what you said because ALPA is garbage? Can it be that maybe you are not being open minded and you already have your mind made up regardless of facts?
Originally Posted by
Nevets
Sure go ahead and make your straw man argument. I never said anything about ALPA national moving anything for anyone. My simple point is that all of those places where better off by having union than they would have been without one. If you think that any bk judge or any of those managements would have made it better then you are being naive.
It could be argued that the Union destroyed Pinnacle
No, I'm sure it has NOTHING to do with Tinery or any other management personal. If you can argue that the union destroyed pinnacle, especially operating under the RLA, then you are arguing that the union is unbelievably powerful.
Originally Posted by
Nevets
As for comair, just ONE example,
Here's a few more just for fun..
TWA merger with American
Pan Am furlough mess
Colgan, Pinnacle, Mesaba debacle (seniority mess/training and selling pilot group to concessions ect...)
Shall we go on?
Sure, keep pointing out specific things that may be perceived as negative. Although positives can be pointed out such as TWA. Do you actually thing that the APA wouldn't have just stapled EVERYONE if they were non-union? Do you think that pinnacle management wouldn't have just imposed their first proposal if they were non-union?
You guys keep playing into the F&H hand by insisting that ALPA is the cause of anything that is bad at a company or that management would be more benevolent without a union. You are carrying their water!
Originally Posted by
Nevets
As for comair, just ONE example, do you honestly believe management would have given the pilots as much as a severance as they did if anything at all if it wasn't for ALPA?
Well there you have it...
As your decades-long aviation career collapses in smoking ruins, alpa will ensure you get some walking around money. Where do I sign up?
Now if D-ALPA had somehow gotten all of their wholly-owned CA brothers-in-unity jobs at DAL, that would have been worth some union dues...
Unions suck at the regional level, and it's a conflict of interest to have the same union "allegedly" representing both majors and regionals...at least until major pilots demand one seniority list for all their brand flying.
You don't think every single one of those comair pilots wanted that "walking" money? They wouldn't have gotten it without ALPA to negotiate for it.
If you actually understood ALPA, you would understand that it's not a conflict of interest.
Look, my only point is that in all these examples, the pilots would've been worse off without ALPA. I'm not saying ALPA is perfect. NO union is perfect because they are made up from imperfect people and its people is what makes a union, not the letters in the name of it.
All I'm saying is that with a union, you have a voice. You get to suggest different things when management comes with their doozies. In all honesty, they may say, we are going with our doozie anyway. But at least you had a voice. But sometimes they may actually listen and implement a win win solution. Having a union just means you get to sit at the table and be part of the conversation and be active in the success of your company or lessen the pain in the failures of your company instead of being a voiceless spectator. Will you agree with everything your union does or wants to do? Of course not because you will never agree with everything your union leadership does. But just as you don't agree with everything your congressman, senator, or president does or wants to do, it doesn't mean that you go to anarchy. No, you vote your conscience when the time comes. Same thing with ALPA. It does good things. It is an organization that is there for good purposes. But sometimes you need to vote people out if they are doing things that are not good.