Originally Posted by
DAL 88 Driver
Actually, no I haven't. But I just took a quick look at the August bid package for 76ER. Looks to me like the international layovers are all at least 15 hours and most well over 20 hours. Plenty of time there to get 8 hours of sleep. CDO's are different in that the rest period is at home rather than on a layover. They are also different in that the main thing that makes them attractive is the ability to be home all day, every day and do things like running a side business or spending time with family, etc. In general, CDO pilots don't sleep during the day. The only sleep they get is whatever sleep the CDO provides, which is going to be maybe 3 or 4 hours at best. Are you telling me that international pilots don't sleep on their layovers?
International trips have to start sometime. Are international guys sitting in a hotel room getting proper rest before the start of their trip? Maybe. More likely, especially in NYC, they are commuting from who knows where and possibly taking a nap in the crew room. I really have no idea what international guys do before their trips. I expect them to show up ready to go because that's what professionals do.
Augmented international trips are really similar to CDOs. Augmented pilots get a break on a passenger seat or if they are really lucky, a rest facility. CDO pilots get a break in a hotel room. The rest facility is nice but the hotel is better. CDOs have an extra takeoff and landing.
In my career, I've done several redeyes and I've done several CDO's. Personally, I'd rather have a root canal than do either one. But again, the difference with the redeye is that the FAA mandated 8 hour sleep opportunity comes on the layover at a hotel. In general, CDO pilots are not sleeping during the day at home.
The entire basis of your argument is that pilots don't sleep while at home. If you had said "I talked to a guy once who said he doesn't sleep between CDOs", this would be anecdotal. It's not even that, it's just you saying things and expecting others to believe you.
I have anecdotal evidence that pilots do sleep while at home since when I did CDOs I slept at home (or in a crash pad) but that is only slightly more useful than your argument. I'm more interested in empirical evidence. To the best of my knowledge there hasn't been a study of pilot behavior on their time off. The FAA investigated and determined a mid duty period nap in conjunction with a known rest period was enough to safely carry out up to five SDPs with only a two hour sleep opportunity (note this isn't the same as two hours of sleep). That doesn't tell us anything about what pilots are doing on their time off but does tell us that it was considered when designing the rule.
From the
final rule which you quote often.
Page 9
In formulating [ed. the split duty] rule, the FAA was particularly concerned about cumulative fatigue caused by repeatedly flying at night. Modeling shows substantially deteriorating performance after the third consecutive nighttime FDP for flightcrew members who worked nightshifts during their WOCL and obtained sleep during the day. However, if a sleep opportunity is provided during each nighttime FDP, that sleep opportunity may sustain flightcrew member performance for five consecutive nights. Based on modeling results, the FAA has determined that a 2-hour nighttime sleep opportunity each night improves pilot performance sufficient to allow up to 5 nights of consecutive nighttime operations.
Maybe in the future if you choose to accuse me of taking you out of context, you might want to go back and read your own post.
Whatever...just post the whole thing and let others decide what I meant.
Are you not saying that, following your suggested rules, CDO's are fine and safe? I then asked you if you would want your family on an airplane with pilots who have only had 3 or 4 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period. I think that was a fair question (a question you never answered BTW) based on what you said within the context of your post.
I am saying CDOs are safe. I'm not saying they are fine. They are pretty undesirable without a whole lot of rules and a lot of credit. My list was "spit-balling", hardly complete.
I didn't answer your question because I don't buy the premise that CDOs somehow cause otherwise professional pilots to do act in an unprofessional way. I expect pilots to show up prepared and think it's really rare when they don't. If a professional pilot showed up for a flight with "3 or 4 hours" of sleep in a 24 hour period I trust that he knows his body well enough to know he is fit for flight.
I'm sorry, but I don't think there is anything "condescending" about pointing out the track record on the way pilots handle CDO's. The main thing that is attractive about them is the ability to be home all day, every day. That's the main reason that pilots like them and bid them. If they have to sleep 8 hours during the day to be rested for their Flight Duty Period, then it takes away their whole reason for bidding CDO's in the first place. What makes you think that would be any different at Delta?
It is condescending to insist that pilots who bid CDOs don't get proper rest. There are plenty of reasons to bid CDOs. If they are worth 1030 I'd bid them because I'd work three nights a week, sleep in the morning and still have time to mow my lawn before work. I'd prefer to sleep from 1030 to 630 every night but I'm a pilot and I'm not afforded that luxury anyway. I'd never see them at my seniority though.
If pilots are staying up all day (or even taking only a couple hour nap) and then flying a CDO with AT BEST 3 or 4 hours of sleep at the hotel in between flights, then they are by definition flying fatigued.
No they aren't. They are acting in ways that may cause them to be fatigued but they are not "by definition flying fatigued."
The definition of fatigue
according to the FAA.
Fatigue is a condition characterized by increased discomfort with lessened capacity for work, reduced efficiency of accomplishment, loss of power or capacity to respond to stimulation, and is usually accompanied by a feeling of weariness and tiredness.
Being tired isn't the same as being fatigued.
Flying fatigued is dangerous. Ipso facto CDO's are dangerous. You can argue all you want about the challenges of getting adequate rest on international flying and redeyes, but the track record is clear on CDO's. The CDO is a different animal... for all the reasons I've stated.
You said something you made up, "(CDO) pilots are staying up all day...with AT BEST 3 or 4 hours of sleep", came to the conclusion that said pilots were fatigued then used the transitive property to determine CDOs are dangerous. This is not a good reason not to do CDOs...and there are good reasons not to do CDOs.
CDOs are undesirable because they operate during WOCL and make you tired. They become a whole lot more desirable when you attach a bunch of work rules and back the Brinks truck up to pay for them. I don't see any reason the company would want that so as much fun as this discussion is I suspect it's moot.
tl;dr
