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Old 07-25-2014, 06:06 AM   #1  
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Default Delta C2015

Thought it would be better for C2015 to have its own thread to focus on the most critical contract of our careers. (IMO)

This contract will not just affect the Delta pilots, it will affect every pilot. It will set the stage for all who follow to return to pattern bargaining. Our MEC committed to a "historic" agreement in True Headings 14-2. I applaud them and support them 100%.

Executive management compensation at Delta is up 300% to 700% since Chapter 11 and they certainly gave no concessions to make these gains.

Granting more concessions like reducing profit sharing or longer freezes is simply unacceptable.

We have suffered enough.

It is time for us to share in the success we contributed over $15 billion and counting in life changing concessions to.

The following is an excerpt from a recent DTW Council 20 update:

Reducing Profit Sharing. The “public” debate about this seems to revolve around trading pay rates for Profit Sharing. This rumor could have originated or been bolstered by charts which have existed for some time and were recently included in the Contract History, which compare 2004 777 pay rates with 2014 777 pay rates with, and without recent profit sharing components.
§ Perspective: After decades of working agreements with profit sharing components that paid little or nothing, we believe that reducing profit sharing during a time of record profits with prospects for the trend to continue, especially considering the “restructured” industry environment and Delta’s drastically reduced debt and improved efficiencies and performance, is a bad idea. Furthermore, the pilot group has invested a significant amount in concessions over the past 10 years, and we consider any profit sharing to be our “dividend” for that investment. It would have been more constructive, and potentially perceived as more balanced, if some type of inflation-adjusted chart relative to the 2004 pay rates were also included.
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:19 AM   #2  
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Pay banding perspective from same Council 20 update:

“Pay Banding”. This is the “banding” of several categories’ pay rates into common bands or groupings. For example, UAL negotiated this type of scheme into their joint contract with the top band consisting of the 767-400 up through the 747-400 (same pay rates). Although not required, banding is generally proposed to come with extended position “freezes” (seat lock). The benefit, depending upon the design of course, to the Company, is reduced training due to the loss of pay rate differential incentive, and extended freezes.
§ Perspective: The downside to Pay Banding is position bidding stagnation, which is exacerbated by long potential freezes, for all, including many who are late in their careers with a limited number of moves remaining after waiting 10-15 years for upward movement to finally begin again. While there may be ways to carefully transition to pay banding and offset the negative consequences, they may likely include parameters about which the Company has little interest.
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:32 AM   #3  
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I'd go for pay banding (widebody, large narrowbody, small narrowbody.) I'd even go for a 3 year freeze. But these gifts must be monetized in the form of increased payrates, over and above what we agree to in the next PWA. At least 20% for the banding and freezes.

Oh, and max out my 401k for me.
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:58 AM   #4  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GogglesPisano View Post
I'd go for pay banding (widebody, large narrowbody, small narrowbody.) I'd even go for a 3 year freeze. But these gifts must be monetized in the form of increased payrates, over and above what we agree to in the next PWA. At least 20% for the banding and freezes.

Oh, and max out my 401k for me.
Remember the longer freezes will result in less pilots required in each category. Your career progression will slow significantly.

Less training, less seniority list instructors to give OE, less pilots required to cover the flying while others are in training.

Study the issue very deep. Talk to your reps about it.

IMO given all our rapidly increasing retirements, 9 fleets and 8 pilot bases, this concession could cost us over 1000 captain positions.
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:07 AM   #5  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gzsg View Post
Remember the longer freezes will result in less pilots required in each category. Your career progression will slow significantly.

Less training, less seniority list instructors to give OE, less pilots required to cover the flying while others are in training.

Study the issue very deep. Talk to your reps about it.

IMO given all our rapidly increasing retirements, 9 fleets and 8 pilot bases, this concession could cost us over 1000 captain positions.
Oh come on! I am not in the least in favor of pay banding but let's not get hysterical! 20% of the Captains positions? It might be 2 or 3 %.

Last edited by johnso29; 07-25-2014 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:11 AM   #6  
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Pay banding is usually a huge concession. Tread carefully.

I'm new here, and haven't studied every tid bit of the contract, so if I say something to which is already in there, sorry. I'll find it one day:

- how about swap with the pot for out of base trips?

- how about a minimum days off after a rotation clause?

- how about no more than "x" days on (ie 4, 5, 6) without at least one calendar day off (not at outstation). Make this a choice pilots could waive in PBS if they like.... I know some people like working 12 days in a row.

I'm sure there is more, but I just landed...
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:13 AM   #7  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gzsg View Post
Remember the longer freezes will result in less pilots required in each category. Your career progression will slow significantly.

Less training, less seniority list instructors to give OE, less pilots required to cover the flying while others are in training.

Study the issue very deep. Talk to your reps about it.

IMO given all our rapidly increasing retirements, 9 fleets and 8 pilot bases, this concession could cost us over 1000 captain positions.
You're pulling this out of your ass. There might be some stagnation, although I don't think with the upcoming retirements and hiring that anyone will know the difference. You certainly wouldn't be able to make any quantifiable comparison. Besides, in recent years when every AE was a backslide and 6 months apart, the training center was a ghost town. You really believe that a banded payscale will compare to THAT? I would be interested in reading your thesis to support that position.

Now. As far as the OP, I agree 717%. That post was absolutely spot on. When we had profit sharing and the company didn't have to worry about payout, it was no big deal. Now that they DO have to worry about paying us a little jenga.. it is. Not my problem, and if they want to "codify" that pay, it better be at a premium, and not dollar for dollar.
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:16 AM   #8  
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Originally Posted by thefoxsays View Post
Pay banding is usually a huge concession. Tread carefully.

What's your thesis on why it is a concession, and huge at that?


I'm new here, and haven't studied every tid bit of the contract, so if I say something to which is already in there, sorry. I'll find it one day:

- how about swap with the pot for out of base trips?

Short ans: no. Long ans: hell no

- how about a minimum days off after a rotation clause?

Clause? no. Maybe an option in PBS would be nice. Unless you are talking about reserve, but lots of guys like to back up trips because they live in Outer Mongolia or some other far off place.

- how about no more than "x" days on (ie 4, 5, 6) without at least one calendar day off (not at outstation). Make this a choice pilots could waive in PBS if they like.... I know some people like working 12 days in a row.

Sure, why not? That's reasonable.


I'm sure there is more, but I just landed...
Welcome to the Machine!
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:18 AM   #9  
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Quote:
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You're pulling this out of your ass. There might be some stagnation, although I don't think with the upcoming retirements and hiring that anyone will know the difference. You certainly wouldn't be able to make any quantifiable comparison. Besides, in recent years when every AE was a backslide and 6 months apart, the training center was a ghost town. You really believe that a banded payscale will compare to THAT? I would be interested in reading your thesis to support that position.

Now. As far as the OP, I agree 717%. That post was absolutely spot on. When we had profit sharing and the company didn't have to worry about payout, it was no big deal. Now that they DO have to worry about paying us a little jenga.. it is. Not my problem, and if they want to "codify" that pay, it better be at a premium, and not dollar for dollar.

You have to wonder how he could even conceive of the 20% number. For that to be true the average pilot would have to spend 72 days a year in non recurrent training and pay banding would have to eliminate every single day of that for every single pilot.
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:20 AM   #10  
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Originally Posted by GogglesPisano View Post
I'd go for pay banding (widebody, large narrowbody, small narrowbody.) I'd even go for a 3 year freeze. But these gifts must be monetized in the form of increased payrates, over and above what we agree to in the next PWA. At least 20% for the banding and freezes.

Oh, and max out my 401k for me by filling it early in the year, and pay my profit sharing quarterly.
Improved it for ya...
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