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Old 08-11-2014, 06:54 AM
  #501  
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Originally Posted by tsquare
OK.. define "FAR". You like to talk in these grandiose terms about how far down our purchasing power is, and that it is uber important to get that back... and to a degree I agree. Your arguments seem so focused on that... and only that.... that sometimes I have a hard time believing that you truly believe negotiations can and will take place. We have been... again... around this maypole a hundred times, and it will result in you flaming me as accepting a reset and all that garbage... but how much are you willing to accept less than total restoration? It's rhetorical, and you know exactly why. The answer is "it depends". The problem is that it is apparent that you do not trust the negotiators to get the best deal they can. I don't know how to reconcile that, because even seeing the survey is not a panacea. All that will do is give DPA clowns more ammo. Anybody can create a crisis based on a single piece of information. The whole picture is important, and you know it. No matter how transparent the MEC or negotiators are, you will never be able to see the whole picture. And you know that also. I trust Heiko. He's both younger and junior to me, so I KNOW he will live with the results of his work. I'm good with it.
Already answered. You just don't like the answer and want to spin it in an attempt to make me out to be some kind of extremist.

You're right about one thing, though. I don't trust the negotiators to get the best deal they can. Not when they don't have an objective that even remotely resembles restoration and are therefore not even opening with something in the ball park. Our company is making billions. Pilot costs are relatively small in the grand scheme of things. It's not that I think our negotiators are dishonest. I just think their objective is something far short of mine and their mindset is in line with bankruptcy as a reset. That is not going to result in anything like what I think is appropriate or what I will accept. Herman Cain (radio host, former presidential candidate, and highly successful businessman) often talks about "working on the right problem." If our negotiating committee is not working on restoration then they are NOT working on the right problem.
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:56 AM
  #502  
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Originally Posted by tsquare
That speaks volumes, and it clears up all the questions about your motivation that I had in the previous post, which will be deleted if I get there before it is quoted.

Good luck in your quest. Be sure to sign your card, and let us all know when the vote will be.
That says nothing about DPA. Again, more spin from you trying to turn it into something it's not. Get off my lawn!
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Old 08-11-2014, 07:21 AM
  #503  
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Already answered. You just don't like the answer and want to spin it in an attempt to make me out to be some kind of extremist.

You're right about one thing, though. I don't trust the negotiators to get the best deal they can. Not when they don't have an objective that even remotely resembles restoration and are therefore not even opening with something in the ball park. Our company is making billions. Pilot costs are relatively small in the grand scheme of things. It's not that I think our negotiators are dishonest. I just think their objective is something far short of mine and their mindset is in line with bankruptcy as a reset. That is not going to result in anything like what I think is appropriate or what I will accept. Herman Cain (radio host, former presidential candidate, and highly successful businessman) often talks about "working on the right problem." If our negotiating committee is not working on restoration then they are NOT working on the right problem.
The "right" problem is a moving target. For you and me it's money. For the newhires it's bottom end scope. For the old guys it's retirement. Why is your desire any more important than anybody else's? I don't want to pay for bottom end scope. That doesn't make it unimportant to somebody else.

And bankruptcy was a reset. There. I said it. Move on. It was sad, it was wrong, but it is a fact. Life's too short to fret and whine about it. There is nowhere to go but up, and I am good with singles and doubles and not home runs. You can only hit what's pitched. And I can't cry about a relief pitcher that throws a really good curve. I have to learn to hit the curve better. And I am.

Can't wait to read your retort to this.... although I am sure I can write it for you and pretty much hit all your talking points.
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Old 08-11-2014, 07:22 AM
  #504  
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
That says nothing about DPA. Again, more spin from you trying to turn it into something it's not. Get off my lawn!
You gonna tear up your allegiance to them then and get on the winning team?
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:04 AM
  #505  
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Originally Posted by tsquare
The "right" problem is a moving target. For you and me it's money. For the newhires it's bottom end scope. For the old guys it's retirement. Why is your desire any more important than anybody else's? I don't want to pay for bottom end scope. That doesn't make it unimportant to somebody else.
I believe we can all have more than one priority. That is a gross over simplification. Having said that, I think money is a fairly high priority for just about everybody. We all (well most of us anyway) love to fly and enjoy our "work." I know I do! But the fundamental reason anyone works is to be compensated for it. We're currently being compensated at a level approx. 34% below the norm that was established for several decades prior to management's great bankruptcy opportunity. I would bet correcting that was a big part of the survey results from most demographics in our pilot group for C2012.

Originally Posted by tsquare
And bankruptcy was a reset. There. I said it. Move on. It was sad, it was wrong, but it is a fact. Life's too short to fret and whine about it. There is nowhere to go but up, and I am good with singles and doubles and not home runs. You can only hit what's pitched. And I can't cry about a relief pitcher that throws a really good curve. I have to learn to hit the curve better. And I am.

Can't wait to read your retort to this.... although I am sure I can write it for you and pretty much hit all your talking points.
Well thanks for being honest. Finally.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:11 AM
  #506  
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Originally Posted by tsquare
You gonna tear up your allegiance to them then and get on the winning team?
I have a current card. I may or may not renew it. Honestly, I don't think they're going to ever get that vote and I'm not too impressed with them anyway.

I wish I had a "winning team" to get on! Unfortunately, the only choice I have is a losing team who gave up because they faced a really bad situation and then didn't have the resolve or commitment or respect for our profession to fight for restoration after the bad situation was over. They think exactly like you just admitted in your other post. This should be the official symbol of DALPA:

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Old 08-11-2014, 08:24 AM
  #507  
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
I have a current card. I may or may not renew it. Honestly, I don't think they're going to ever get that vote and I'm not too impressed with them anyway.

I wish I had a "winning team" to get on! Unfortunately, the only choice I have is a losing team who gave up because they faced a really bad situation and then didn't have the resolve or commitment or respect for our profession to fight for restoration after the bad situation was over. They think exactly like you just admitted in your other post. This should be the official symbol of DALPA:

Well 62% of your pilot group disagrees with you. Of course I guess they were simply duped.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:45 AM
  #508  
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Originally Posted by Splash
Fair enough…as long as you acknowledge that many No voters did so to repudiate Lee Moak's strategies and achievements, and that they're in the clear minority of our pilot group.
That's ridiculous. I've never heard a single no voter say that. Not one. Mostly the reasons I've heard are: Didn't meet the contract survey, didn't believe the MEC admin's fear campaign, thought the company would come back with more if we sent it back, and it was too little before Section 6 even began.

Originally Posted by Splash
This thread is about C2015, and to date, ALPA seems to be following a very methodical process to educate us on the history of our contract, and our place within the industry landscape.
Just like last time and not including our foreign JV competitors.

Carl
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:49 AM
  #509  
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Originally Posted by Splash
Personally, I believe bankruptcy DID represent a "reset", if not of wage rates, than of our shifting of priorities.
Yikes.

Originally Posted by Splash
They also tended to be at companies that had used an incremental strategy to grow and develop their networks.
Yikes!

Carl
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:05 AM
  #510  
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Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Ever heard of ethics, Shiz? Common sense? You know how in aviation sometimes just because it's legal doesn't necessarily mean it's safe? Well, sometimes in life just because it's legal doesn't necessarily mean it's smart or the right thing to do.


Yeah, well I don't trust my reps. I especially don't trust their judgement. I didn't vote for any of them.
Thanks for the emotional response, it really helps your case.

I was simply referencing how the process is conducted per the C&BL and MEC Policy Manual. That same C&BL and Policy Manual process brought you the C2K, LOA46, LOA 19, LOA 51, C1991, c1996, etc. some were good, some weren't; was it a lack of ethics and common sense then too? Did we abandon our reps if they weren't the specific one you voted for?

The NWA pilots would not have been successful in 1998 unless they backed their reps 100%, whether they voted for them or not.

Unity isn't an item of convenience. It's a fundamental part of being in a union member. I hope you come to that realization some day.
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