Details on Delta TA
08-09-2014, 08:53 AM
#471
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,397
Originally Posted by Splash
Good post! I appreciate your thoughtful response. I disagree with your lack of faith in ALPA, but I accept it as a sincere assessment.
Personally, I believe bankruptcy DID represent a "reset", if not of wage rates, than of our shifting of priorities. I don't think any of us like our earnings to be as vulnerable as they proved to be in the period following 9/11, so the shift has been to make our PWA less vulnerable. Like it or not, we have the most to lose when seismic upheavals alter our industry. The pilot groups that weathered the upheavals the best (meaning with the least amount of impact on their earnings), had achieved their gains incrementally…and weren't well above the industry averages. They also tended to be at companies that had used an incremental strategy to grow and develop their networks.
I agree with you that we have good management. The wary part of me that doesn't want to revisit the chaos of the previous decade appreciates their conservative strategy. I appreciate that same strategy from our union.
Personally, I believe bankruptcy DID represent a "reset", if not of wage rates, than of our shifting of priorities. I don't think any of us like our earnings to be as vulnerable as they proved to be in the period following 9/11, so the shift has been to make our PWA less vulnerable. Like it or not, we have the most to lose when seismic upheavals alter our industry. The pilot groups that weathered the upheavals the best (meaning with the least amount of impact on their earnings), had achieved their gains incrementally…and weren't well above the industry averages. They also tended to be at companies that had used an incremental strategy to grow and develop their networks.
I agree with you that we have good management. The wary part of me that doesn't want to revisit the chaos of the previous decade appreciates their conservative strategy. I appreciate that same strategy from our union.
08-09-2014, 11:38 AM
#472
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Splash
Good post! I appreciate your thoughtful response. I disagree with your lack of faith in ALPA, but I accept it as a sincere assessment.
Personally, I believe bankruptcy DID represent a "reset", if not of wage rates, than of our shifting of priorities. I don't think any of us like our earnings to be as vulnerable as they proved to be in the period following 9/11, so the shift has been to make our PWA less vulnerable. Like it or not, we have the most to lose when seismic upheavals alter our industry. The pilot groups that weathered the upheavals the best (meaning with the least amount of impact on their earnings), had achieved their gains incrementally…and weren't well above the industry averages. They also tended to be at companies that had used an incremental strategy to grow and develop their networks.
I agree with you that we have good management. The wary part of me that doesn't want to revisit the chaos of the previous decade appreciates their conservative strategy. I appreciate that same strategy from our union.
Personally, I believe bankruptcy DID represent a "reset", if not of wage rates, than of our shifting of priorities. I don't think any of us like our earnings to be as vulnerable as they proved to be in the period following 9/11, so the shift has been to make our PWA less vulnerable. Like it or not, we have the most to lose when seismic upheavals alter our industry. The pilot groups that weathered the upheavals the best (meaning with the least amount of impact on their earnings), had achieved their gains incrementally…and weren't well above the industry averages. They also tended to be at companies that had used an incremental strategy to grow and develop their networks.
I agree with you that we have good management. The wary part of me that doesn't want to revisit the chaos of the previous decade appreciates their conservative strategy. I appreciate that same strategy from our union.
(Now that I got THAT off my chest, Herkflyr. 
)Disregard the above sentence... I'm just pulling Herkflyr's chain! Here's my concern with what you said:
It sounds a little to me like you're saying we should keep our earnings from being too much so they're not "vulnerable." Given the severity of the cuts we took 10 years ago and how little progress we've made in recovering that buying power, I don't think that's a particularly applicable concern to our situation.
I also disagree with your assessment (at least I think this is what you're saying) that the gains we had with C2K were not "incremental" and were well above the industry average. If you will recall, C2K put us just barely above United and American at the time. No doubt we were on top, but just barely. We certainly weren't "well above the industry averages." Also, if you take a look at 1986 pay rates for example, C2K basically just restored us to that buying power after taking a relatively small pay cut in the mid 1990's with the contract affectionately referred to as "POS96." Incremental gains and a small pay restoration (MUCH smaller than what would be required today for restoration) are what produced C2K rates.
And I don't think we should be making any apologies for insisting that our pay be restored to this level. Especially given the completely different situation in which we find ourselves today with our company leading the way making multiple billions in profits and the industry restructured in a way that should facilitate more of that going forward. It is COMPLETELY inappropriate that we are being compensated at a level of buying power WORSE than what we had after taking a 32.5% pay cut in a desperate, futile attempt to save our company from bankruptcy. It seems to me that any reasonable person should be able to see that.
I fully realize that going to the company and insisting on anything like that is going to ruffle some feathers. For 10 years, we've given our management every reason to believe we've accepted bankruptcy as a reset and that we do not expect anything like restoration. "Labor risk is off the table"... I'm sure I saw that quote somewhere!
They're not going to like finding out that was one big misunderstanding, but so be it. It needs to be rectified. Chalk it up to a really bad strategic plan on our part. I expect my representation to be advocating restoration and trying to put together a plan to achieve it. I do NOT expect my representation to be accepting on my behalf a lower value for my career and then working to lower everybody's expectations to accept this lower value. It's definitely going to be harder now that we've had a full decade of the latter.
08-09-2014, 11:48 AM
#473
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by Splash
Personally, I believe bankruptcy DID represent a "reset", if not of wage rates, than of our shifting of priorities. I don't think any of us like our earnings to be as vulnerable as they proved to be in the period following 9/11, so the shift has been to make our PWA less vulnerable. Like it or not, we have the most to lose when seismic upheavals alter our industry. The pilot groups that weathered the upheavals the best (meaning with the least amount of impact on their earnings), had achieved their gains incrementally…and weren't well above the industry averages.
I agree with you that we have good management. The wary part of me that doesn't want to revisit the chaos of the previous decade appreciates their conservative strategy. I appreciate that same strategy from our union.
I agree with you that we have good management. The wary part of me that doesn't want to revisit the chaos of the previous decade appreciates their conservative strategy. I appreciate that same strategy from our union.
That post explains a lot.
08-09-2014, 12:03 PM
#474
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by Splash
This thread is about C2015, and to date, ALPA seems to be following a very methodical process to educate us on the history of our contract, and our place within the industry landscape. The pre-survey effort (webinars, lounge visits, PUB's, and emails) looks solid to me.
We all saw what happened with C2012. A handful of people sat down and wrote our contract. They blew off the survey and the pilots and the MEC reps and cut a deal on their own. Then they justified their actions with the whole "fleeting opportunity", "we must do this fast" argument.
I hope that doesn't happen again but it sure could. That same core group of guys are still running the show.
08-09-2014, 12:55 PM
#475
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
If I were DALPA, I would pass out glitter pens to every pilot, and have you guys fill out every company document with them. A coordinated, benign act of defiance, sends a strong message that the group is unified going into C2015. It will also drive management nuts.
08-09-2014, 05:56 PM
#476
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by Check Essential
I only hope all this pre-contract surveying and preparation and communication is not just a kabuki dance.
We all saw what happened with C2012. A handful of people sat down and wrote our contract. They blew off the survey and the pilots and the MEC reps and cut a deal on their own. Then they justified their actions with the whole "fleeting opportunity", "we must do this fast" argument.
I hope that doesn't happen again but it sure could. That same core group of guys are still running the show.
We all saw what happened with C2012. A handful of people sat down and wrote our contract. They blew off the survey and the pilots and the MEC reps and cut a deal on their own. Then they justified their actions with the whole "fleeting opportunity", "we must do this fast" argument.
I hope that doesn't happen again but it sure could. That same core group of guys are still running the show.
So tell me again how (maybe 4) rogue members were able to pull off a deal that would fool the MEC, AND the entire 12,000 member pilot group AND be less acceptable than they would all have to go live under afterward? You must have a very low opinion of the intellect of the NC, MEC, and entire membership. Thankfully your view isn't reality or a majority view of the collective pilot group.
08-09-2014, 06:37 PM
#478
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: One with wings
Posts: 332
Originally Posted by shiznit
So the MEC elected an MEC Chairman and an NC. So they then don't give them the authority to make a deal? Their JOB is to negotiate a deal. Then, the MEC votes 14-5 (16-5 incl MEM that was closed less than 30 days earlier) to approve it. After that the pilot group votes nearly 2:1 in favor....
So tell me again how (maybe 4) rogue members were able to pull off a deal that would fool the MEC, AND the entire 12,000 member pilot group AND be less acceptable than they would all have to go live under afterward? You must have a very low opinion of the intellect of the NC, MEC, and entire membership. Thankfully your view isn't reality or a majority view of the collective pilot group.
So tell me again how (maybe 4) rogue members were able to pull off a deal that would fool the MEC, AND the entire 12,000 member pilot group AND be less acceptable than they would all have to go live under afterward? You must have a very low opinion of the intellect of the NC, MEC, and entire membership. Thankfully your view isn't reality or a majority view of the collective pilot group.
What he was alluding to is the the NC went rogue and did NOT follow the direction of the MEC and disregarded the contract survey. We are all hoping that that does not happen again.
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