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Old 07-25-2014, 08:56 AM
  #21  
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Please educate me on why out of base swaps is a bad thing. We had it at my previous 121 outfit and it was a huge QOL improvement.

Out of base swaps were subject to staffing matrix's....

Again I don't see the negative.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:01 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by johnso29 View Post
BATOL,

I can only speak for myself and a few others who I know feel the same way. Personally, I look to bring the flying BACK to mainline. EtD IMO isn't going to work to the degree that management needs/wants. If we, at the very least, hold the line management's options to staff DCI will continue to dwindle.

Recapturing the flying won't be easy. It will meet resistance from mainline pilots who feel we will have to sacrifice things in order to get it back. I think we have a golden opportunity. Only time will tell.
Costing will tell. If it can be flown at a competitive price then we can get it back. If not it does no good to bring it to the mainline because it will simply go away.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:05 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by thefoxsays View Post
Please educate me on why out of base swaps is a bad thing. We had it at my previous 121 outfit and it was a huge QOL improvement.

Out of base swaps were subject to staffing matrix's....

Again I don't see the negative.
With our system it would be hard to make it function from a scheduling standpoint. We have correctly protected flying for in base pilots until the day before the trip. Only then can a out of base pilot pick up flying.
What we really need to do is bring all swaps under the pickup limit. That would increase staffing.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:07 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
Oh come on! I am not in the least in favor of pay banding but let's not get hysterical! 20% of the Captains positions? It might be 2 or 3 %.
Sailing

I don't look at today. I look to the future and 1000 less captains is easily possible.

In 2022 over 1000 pilots will walk out the door. IMO that will generate over 6000 initial training cycles in 12 months. Perhaps you think less, but just imagine the number of seniority list instructors to accomplish the OE. The number of pilots required to cover the flying while all these pilots are in training.

Ask your reps to have ALPA E & FA do the math. The numbers are staggering.

jerry
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:12 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by gzsg View Post
Sailing

I don't look at today. I look to the future and 1000 less captains is easily possible.

In 2022 over 1000 pilots will walk out the door. IMO that will generate over 6000 initial training cycles in 12 months. Perhaps you think less, but just imagine the number of seniority list instructors to accomplish the OE. The number of pilots required to cover the flying while all these pilots are in training.

Ask your reps to have ALPA E & FA do the math. The numbers are staggering.

jerry
6000 training events sounds high. The last I heard with our current semi banded rates you might see 4 events. Even if it's 6 events pay banding would have to eliminate all 6000 events to cost us 1000 jobs. In reality it might eliminate 10 percent of the training or 600 events.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:18 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Alan Shore View Post
Longer freezes have no effect on staffing. All they do is cause some other pilot to take the frozen pilot's training slot. OTOH, an overall reduction in training brought about by there being less incentive to change equipment will reduce staffing, because there are fewer pilots off the line in training and fewer SLIs needed.

One would have to come up with an assumption of the amount of the reduction in training before one could quantify the effect on staffing.
Alan

Here is the fact that I got from an UAL MEC member on pay banding/longer freezes and their experience. I sure you have the connections in ALPA to verify what I am saying.

Prior to the concession, 8% of the seniority list pilots were involved in training. Either as an instructor or a student. After the concession, it was cut in half to 4%.

4% of their pilot group about 500 pilot jobs lost.

Now, and you are good at this kind of math, calculate the number of jobs lost in 2022 when over 1000 Delta pilots retire.

IMO there is a good chance we will have over 16,000 pilots by then.

Concessions are a very bad idea and totally unnecessary. IMO

Jerry
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:20 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by gzsg View Post
Alan

Here is the fact that I got from an UAL MEC member on pay banding/longer freezes and their experience. I sure you have the connections in ALPA to verify what I am saying.

Prior to the concession, 8% of the seniority list pilots were involved in training. Either as an instructor or a student. After the concession, it was cut in half to 4%.

4% of their pilot group about 500 pilot jobs lost.

Now, and you are good at this kind of math, calculate the number of jobs lost in 2022 when over 1000 Delta pilots retire.

IMO there is a good chance we will have over 16,000 pilots by then.

Concessions are a very bad idea and totally unnecessary. IMO

Jerry
What freezes did they have then and now?
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:21 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
6000 training events sounds high. The last I heard with our current semi banded rates you might see 4 events. Even if it's 6 events pay banding would have to eliminate all 6000 events to cost us 1000 jobs. In reality it might eliminate 10 percent of the training or 600 events.
At 4 you are still talking about 4000 initials in 12 months. Granting concessions to lower this number will cost how many seniority list instructor jobs? How many captain jobs?

I think we have given enough.

We have stagnated long enough.

JMO
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:23 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by gloopy View Post
What freezes did they have then and now?
I am not an expert on the length of their freezes, hopefully the contract comparison will have exact detail.

The pilots I know hate it.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:53 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by thefoxsays View Post
Please educate me on why out of base swaps is a bad thing. We had it at my previous 121 outfit and it was a huge QOL improvement.

Out of base swaps were subject to staffing matrix's....

Again I don't see the negative.
Yeah, a huge QOL improvement for the more senior guy... If you are willing to go to a **** base in a **** city like DTW or NYC, and suffer there for a little seniority, it ain't right for a more senior guy to stay at home in ATL, drop his whole schedule and cherry pick your base's trips. If you want to fly the trips in my category in my base, then bid it. Otherwise, stay home and fly your own trips.


Hell no.
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