Originally Posted by
FliFast
AA73,
To debate your points, I put my points in your quote:
Ditto:
[QUOTE]
***If it was carved in stone from day one, doesn't that contradict what you said below about how the APA got irked, yaddah yaddah. The part you mentioned below is an untruth. Like you said above, SUPP CC was concocted once Don Carty gave John Darrah the green light to bulldoze the TWA pilots.[/QOUTE]
The APA got irked because, while they knew from day one how they were going to integrate everyone - by protecting AA pilots first, which is what we pay our union to do - they also didn't come right out and staple 100% of you guys like some other cases/airlines, because they knew that would not be a fair integration. So, since it wasn't going to be a 100% staple, they had to negotiate with you guys - and you guys walked out of the last meeting. That is fact.
***
[qoute]I'm not sure I can believe this. Although speculation on your part. If we had signed, we would have had no recourse both legally and legislatively. Unlike, the Ozark group who later sued TWA, the judge in their case said they had a good case, but his hands were tied since they signed on the dotted line. If we did sign, we would have all been stapled and the reward back in early 2001 would have been a no-furlough clause. When the new contract was signed in the Spring of 2003', the AMR insisted on a 33% paycut (can you imagine what that will do to a 777 Capts paycheck), and few furloughes. The APA countered with a 23% paycut and furloughes to make up the difference. [/qoute]
Believe it, it is not speculation. There was an earlier proposal that had 800 guys stapled instead of 1200, with more guys slotted in at 1:8. Your guys should have signed it but you say you recalled them when they wanted to sign. Then the new guys you brought in wouldn't even negotiate.
***
Nearly 90 of the 186 TWA airplanes are still flying today in the AMR fleet. Prior to the furloughes, TWA had 24,000 employees, today approx 1750 employees remain..less than 10%. Of the 2400 TWA pilots nearly 1900 were furloughed--80% . On the NAAtive side, only 10% of the pilots were furloughed. AirCal, on the other hand got DOH when they merged with AMR and so did TransCarib.
Wow, 90 out of 186? That number is slowly dwindling. Ask yourself where all those TWA MD80s are ending up. The 39 MD83Gs are GONE by 2010 - those are the last ones off the production line. That leaves, what, 50 older ones? Probably off to Roswell before long. 767s- gone. 717s - gone. Do you see the trend? Reno - gone. Aircal - gone. And employees - well, you can answer that one yourself - 9/11. AA had a crap load of employees that got the ax, too, thanks to 911. Without 9/11, a lot more AA and TWA employees would have remained employed. That is common sense. And the reason only 10% of AA pilots got furloughed is, well, because we did the buying, and we were in a stronger position, and the APA takes care of its own first. How would it look if APA allowed a bunch of TWAers to stay employed while furloughing the bulk of its own dues paying members?
***
I will conced 73, yes ALPA did screw us also and we are in litigation with them. There are unions out there that don't take pride in screwing the people they represent. But before ALPA sold us down the river, they did propse the Tannan Proposal to the APA-basically our widebody Capts would be integrated after ALL your widebody Capts. Our narrowbody Capts would be placed on the seniority list after all your narrowbody Capts, and on and on through the F/O ranks. In addition there would have been a 5 year fence off of all AMR's equipment that TWA did not possess (A300/MD11/777).
I think there's no doubt that ALPA screwed you the hardest by not putting up a fight. If someone bought AA, I would expect my union to fight like hell in negotiating a fair deal. And if they don't, I'd be part of the lawsuit as well.
***
USAir pilots asked for arbritation. United and Delta pilots both negotiated good contracts in the late 90s. We never signed the integration and recalled those who wanted to..yes you do have a voice in your union.
You lost me there. Yes, USAir asked for arbitration - as they should, they are ALPA. But once the process was begun, what kind of influence did the average USAir line pilot have over how things turned out? None. As far as UAL and DAL getting good contracts in the 90s, so did AA - in '97, ours was right there at the top of the payscale. I don't get your point. My voice in the union affects those things it can affect. But if I'm not happy with something I have no control over, what do you suggest I do?
***
It's not crazy delivering boxes at UPS. At the commuter level we went through a merger and it was civilized not the gang bang that you guys did to us. So it's not crazy everywhere, just when you're being led by a bunch of crazies.
It's not crazy right now. But it can turn crazy any second - you know as well as I do that the airline industry is like that. You guys are Teamsters... what if UPS buys out Fedex or someone else with a different union and proposes a staple? How much influence will you have over your union leaders who put it together? Not much, I'd be willing to bet.
That said, I would have loved to have been part of a civilized merger, too. But, like Deez340 said above, we have a nasty battle that we fight with our management. And it's pretty short sighted to blame me, a lowly rank and file line swine, for your troubles with our merger. Frst off, I'm in the minority if I propose that our deal is unfair. They'd laugh their a$$ off at me. Second, even if we were to have recalled Darrah/White, someone else would have come right in and continued the gang bang. That was the nature of the beast. I'm typing my a$$ off trying to agree with you that the process was unfair, while pointing out certain facts that really did happen, contrary to the TWA propaganda machine that feeds you guys certain b.s.- but you can't seem to understand me.