Thread: Emirates EK521 preliminary report released
View Single Post
Old 09-19-2016 | 08:21 AM
  #16  
Adlerdriver's Avatar
Adlerdriver
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,064
Likes: 37
From: 767 Captain
Default
Originally Posted by tailwheel48
I'm curious as to what automation level you want to practice at? Simply handflying the aircraft while using the monitoring pilot to manipulate the flight director seems pointless. You could probably train a chimpanzee to do that. Certainly any twelve year old proficient in PlayStation could do it.
Originally Posted by tailwheel48

Are you suggesting flying a departure on raw data? Is that how you 'practice'?
Are you suggesting handflying a raw data approach? Even in high traffic, complex arrival situations?
Are you suggesting violating company (and consequently FAA) procedures by turning off autothrottles? Use of autothrottles is mandated by my companies FAA approved Flight Manual.

How about no auto throttles or auto pilot to start with. Maybe advance to turning off the flight director. It’s really not that big a deal. Flying an RNAV arrival or departure using “raw data” or no lateral FD guidance would be pretty non-standard. But, getting vectored around the pattern to a visual or ILS? Why not? I just jumpseated in the cockpit of an RJ yesterday flying into a large metropolitan airport with lots of traffic, flying a STAR followed by vectors to an ILS. No auto-throttles, they didn’t use VNAV and they had auto pilot off by 8K. Flight director wasn’t that helpful when the ILS turned into a visual so they turned it off. I’ll bet you could do the same thing (if your company allowed) and you might actually have a little fun. The size of your jet or the location you’re flying it in doesn’t really have any bearing on the situation. If the arrival is really THAT complex or you’re concerned about the traffic situation, then maybe that’s not the day to do it. There needs to be a little judgment involved, right?

No, I’m not telling you to violate company policy. It seems like you’re a product of that culture which happens to view automation as king rather than a balance of both automation and manual flying. It sounds like the “group think” mentality where everyone confirms each other’s viewpoints and it becomes difficult to imagine that there are others on the outside who don’t share the same attitudes. If your company thinks that little of your pilot group’s ability to maintain airspeed with manual throttles, then I guess there’s not much you can do. Just know you are a minority (at least in the U.S.) and mandating use of auto-throttles is not a widely used practice. The fact that the FAA bought off on it is kind of irrelevant. Do you really think a government agency with their history is going to step off the fence and plant a flag on a specific policy? They’ll be happy to sign off on company X’s requirement to maximize automation and turn around and approve Y’s plan to allow manual flying.

If you use a flight director like a kid on play station or an ignorant animal blindly following rote commands, then I can see why you feel the way you do. I prefer to use it as an aid, rather than a crutch, looking through it and setting pitch and bank angles I know to be correct and what I would be using without it. My first flight director was analog and only popped into view when the ILS was captured. It had a vote, but we were always cautioned to use the raw data and look through it. I have carried that attitude throughout my career and it has served me well. I really don’t care if I use it even today. Whether it’s on or off, I still feel like I get some benefit from manually flying an ILS with primary reference to raw data. I’d suggest you give it a try with the FD off, but considering you can’t even turn the auto-throttles off, that’s probably a pipe-dream. Maybe next time in the sim. So, are you grounded if the auto-throttles are MELed? I’ve flown ANC-OAK and ANC-IND in the MD-11 with no auto-throttles. Kind of a pain at cruise, but not that big a deal, especially if you make a regular practice of turning them off.

Originally Posted by tailwheel48
I stand by my assertion that automation has prevented more incidents than it has caused. All the automation accidents that I'm aware of were caused by pilots who were unfamiliar with the limitations of their systems.
Originally Posted by tailwheel48

The notion that one is simply a 'button-pusher' because you use the automation to make the operation safer is nuts. I've done my time cranking and banking a B737 into Tegucigalpa, and I enjoyed that kind of flying when I was doing it. Widebody international flying is a different kind of beast.
I maintain my stick and rudder skills by flying my C170 taildragger into short dirt strips. I'm pretty confident that the day that all three auto-pilots on my WB fail, I'll manage! In the meantime I'll strive to operate as safely as possible, which will include max use of all the automation available.
I’m not anti-automation and it certainly has a valuable place in our profession. I also agree that it is imperative that pilots know their system in order to use it properly and readily identify failures or even improper use by their crew before that develops into a serious event. I simply don’t view a reduced level of automation as a less safe method of operation in all situations.

If you evaluate the circumstances on a particular day and decide max automation is the best option, then that’s the way to go. I guess where we deviate is coming to that conclusion on every flight. Obviously, you’re not doing anything wrong and are bound by your company procedures. Since I have the choice, I think there is high value in making a regular practice of basic hand flying without automation. You don’t – and I doubt we’re going to change each other’s mind, so it is what it is. I know it has helped me in more challenging simulator training and every day flying. I have a better feel for the aircraft; I’m more familiar with typical pitch and power settings and simply more comfortable and confident flying the jet. I spent almost 10 years on the MD-11 and I really liked hand flying it. I’ve only been on the 777 a little more than a year, so I like to take every opportunity I can to fly it. Not everyone has a C170 to fly around in. Even if they did, I would suggest the skill set in a heavy transport category jet and a taildragger are different enough for me to question the cross-over benefit. But, maybe it works for you.

Widebody international flying is still just flying a transport category jet from A to B, it just takes longer. There may be more potential to encounter situations that warrant a higher level of automation. But, not by definition and not every flight, IMO. As I said, we’re on different pages here and it’s unlikely that’s going to change.
Tailwinds.
Reply
0