Originally Posted by
newKnow
Eric,
If you don't see EVER getting the airplanes back at the majors, then why even bring it up?
I mean what's the point of complaining if you can't conceive of any solutions? That's my point. You are just yapping.
The difference in our examples is key.
In Top Gun when the little guy was yapping at Maverick ("We could have had 'em man!") they were off the airplane oand on the ground. Maverick could not have done anything at that point.
Your Tim Robbins example is great, because he, on the other hand was yelling at him while they were in the air. Maverick was able to take his advice and do something with it.
If you can see my point, it is that you are not being constructive yapping at us while offering no suggestions. This is what I'm saying is disrespectful.
If you say that all you wanted to do is know what we gave up scope in our last K, I answered it in my first post. A bunch of senior guys convinced too many junior guys that it was the best K we could get. It actually saved their pensions and did little else for the rest of us.
Now those senior guys are retiring at a pretty good clip. This airline will be full of junior guys very soon because of it. We have huge numbers of retirements coming up and even if "Age 65" did pass, there would be less effect than there would be at other airlines because of the "saved" pensions I mentioned above. In fact, those pilots who were furloughed towards the tail end of the furloughs are a just few numbers from the left seat of the DC-9. Anyone who has been furloughed knows how to risk things and survive if things don't work out. So, when our K is up in 2011, our pilot group will be full of "junior" people. Scope, retirement, and pay will be at the top of our list.
Personally, I think ALL aircraft with a NWA logo on it should be under one K. If our number one -400 pilot wanted to bid to fly right seat of the SAAB-340, I think he should be able to do it. No whipsawing that way. I also, think there should be longevity pay that is not seat specific (like what UPS has). No whipsawing that way.
Who know's who will be in charge of our union at the time our new K comes up, but hopefully we have a chance to change things for the better. That will if we can remain focused and find people that don't complain just to hear their voices.
New K Now
You are correct I don't think the majors will EVER get the airplanes given up back. It would be nice if it happened though. Why bring it up like 1900 did, because the majors continue to give up larger and more airplanes reducing future jobs at the majors.
The point of bringing it up, complaining or yapping as you call it is this. You claim to know all of the problems, regional pay/work rules, size, scope, whipsawing and that I am preaching to the choir. Then why in your first post you tell 1900 and I quote
"But, don't act like we messed it up for you. We messed it up for ourselves, you are not even here (yet)." 1900 can't even get the the "yet" part because the majors continue giving away bigger and more airplanes. I would have thought the majors learned their lesson with the 50 seaters and yet they gave up 70 seaters. That's why I bring it up so that it doesn't become 100 seaters the next time around.
Now back to top gun analogies. You just explained why things keep getting worse and worse with scope. No ones talking about the ramifications of what's happened in the past. According to you there is no reason to talk about it because it is over. Why do we debrief after sim sessions, have crm classes or talk about accidents. We do that so we learn for our mistakes. We talk about them after the fact.
I'm right there with you about all the flying should be done for the parent airline.
My solution is this, we talk about it so that it doesn't happen again and again. Delta prior to 9-11 on their last contract gave up 70 seaters so that they could get the united contract. They threw the 70 seaters under the bus because they (the current pilots) wouldn't be flying them only the new ones. This is according to my delta buddies. I want to make sure this doesn't happen again for a quick pay day because we all know that delta has lost their pay as well as those 70 seaters.