for u NWA guys out there...
09-12-2007 | 02:23 PM
#41
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Joined: Sep 2007
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I guess when I read 1900's post I don't see it as being disrespectful at all. He said he wants to work at a major but the way everyone keeps loosening scope he might be better off staying if the trend continues. He just wants to know why. In all honesty I felt your reply was more disrespectful than his because you said it doesn't affect him at all.
The way to fix the loosening of scope is to stop it. It shouldn't even be an option at the negociating table. Be the opposite of Nike, Just Don't Do It!
If a customer asked why something happened I'd tell them.
I've had discussions with guys at other airlines about scope and I have told them that it should be shot down on the scope clause alone. It is something that I highly doubt they will ever be able to get back. This was while in the jump seat as well. Sometimes there needs to be tough discussions.
You ask how a person would feel about losing their job and hearing 1900 complain. I would think they would be on his side. Having been a person who lost a job after 9-11 it absolutely floored me when united and Usair gave away more flying while laying off pilots. My initial thought was that any new 50 seaters would start going to the major (even at the low pay) just so that guys don't get furloughed. Due to scope language. That didn't happen and they actually gave away bigger airplanes. If those airplane weren't given up I'm betting the furloughed pilots might have been recalled quicker. Loosening scope just adds to the number of $15,000 FO jobs out their.
So is their any truth to the rumor about parking all of the dc9-30's? How is the scope language worded? can they actually shrink mainline to lower the floor or something like that to make it easier to get more 76 seater's. Is the ratio based on growth or new airplanes?
The way to fix the loosening of scope is to stop it. It shouldn't even be an option at the negociating table. Be the opposite of Nike, Just Don't Do It!
If a customer asked why something happened I'd tell them.
I've had discussions with guys at other airlines about scope and I have told them that it should be shot down on the scope clause alone. It is something that I highly doubt they will ever be able to get back. This was while in the jump seat as well. Sometimes there needs to be tough discussions.
You ask how a person would feel about losing their job and hearing 1900 complain. I would think they would be on his side. Having been a person who lost a job after 9-11 it absolutely floored me when united and Usair gave away more flying while laying off pilots. My initial thought was that any new 50 seaters would start going to the major (even at the low pay) just so that guys don't get furloughed. Due to scope language. That didn't happen and they actually gave away bigger airplanes. If those airplane weren't given up I'm betting the furloughed pilots might have been recalled quicker. Loosening scope just adds to the number of $15,000 FO jobs out their.
So is their any truth to the rumor about parking all of the dc9-30's? How is the scope language worded? can they actually shrink mainline to lower the floor or something like that to make it easier to get more 76 seater's. Is the ratio based on growth or new airplanes?
As far as "just don't do it!". That sounds good but Scope is just one part of the contract. If pilots say they will not even open it (scope) then they will have to give somewhere else(pay,vacation,sick,work rules,etc.). Some pilots could not afford to give up anymore pay,vac.,sick,etc. and survive. So to save a higher paying job they caved on scope and other stuff. And before you say you will never get the planes back. It's not going to be easy to get anything back. When contracts open all you are going to here is "cost neutral"
This is also a two way street. Everyone say that majors sould not give up anymore scope. Well the reigonals should stop taking bigger and bigger planes. When the company says they want pay rates for 90,100,120 seat airplanes say NO! Tell them you do not want them.
09-12-2007 | 02:52 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
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I thought 1900's post sounded a little disrespectful. You never hear them complain when they get there first airline job because someone gave up scope. Only when they realize they want to advance and that seat is no longer there.
As far as "just don't do it!". That sounds good but Scope is just one part of the contract. If pilots say they will not even open it (scope) then they will have to give somewhere else(pay,vacation,sick,work rules,etc.). Some pilots could not afford to give up anymore pay,vac.,sick,etc. and survive. So to save a higher paying job they caved on scope and other stuff. And before you say you will never get the planes back. It's not going to be easy to get anything back. When contracts open all you are going to here is "cost neutral"
This is also a two way street. Everyone say that majors sould not give up anymore scope. Well the reigonals should stop taking bigger and bigger planes. When the company says they want pay rates for 90,100,120 seat airplanes say NO! Tell them you do not want them.
As far as "just don't do it!". That sounds good but Scope is just one part of the contract. If pilots say they will not even open it (scope) then they will have to give somewhere else(pay,vacation,sick,work rules,etc.). Some pilots could not afford to give up anymore pay,vac.,sick,etc. and survive. So to save a higher paying job they caved on scope and other stuff. And before you say you will never get the planes back. It's not going to be easy to get anything back. When contracts open all you are going to here is "cost neutral"
This is also a two way street. Everyone say that majors sould not give up anymore scope. Well the reigonals should stop taking bigger and bigger planes. When the company says they want pay rates for 90,100,120 seat airplanes say NO! Tell them you do not want them.
as for hearing new pilots complain that is just ridiculous. here's a thought if those airplanes had went to the major then more regional pilots would go their creating new jobs for future pilots at the regional. what do you want more major pilots or regional?
as for those last 2 sentences, please...
09-12-2007 | 04:47 PM
#43
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Joined: Sep 2007
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wow, so in your give and take what did the airlines get in the last round of contracts. I'm sure it was give and take that time. name 1 thing that they got for loosening scope. was it lower pay, less sick time, lost work rules, lost vacation. wait I got it, it was they got to work more hours each month.
as for hearing new pilots complain that is just ridiculous. here's a thought if those airplanes had went to the major then more regional pilots would go their creating new jobs for future pilots at the regional. what do you want more major pilots or regional?
as for those last 2 sentences, please...
as for hearing new pilots complain that is just ridiculous. here's a thought if those airplanes had went to the major then more regional pilots would go their creating new jobs for future pilots at the regional. what do you want more major pilots or regional?
as for those last 2 sentences, please...
One thing they got for loosening scope was they did not have to take a bigger pay cut then they did, or more work rule changes, or less sick time, etc.. If they did not bend on scope they would have had to give more somewhere else. None of the choices they had to choose from where good. It was not like they where happy about any of it. What do you think they should have given up? And remember if it was not Scope it has to come from somewhere else.
I want more major jobs. But they need to be good paying jobs or why bother.
"as for the last 2 sentences, please"
I could be wrong but didn't Mesa ask the pilots to fly 737's? And they said no.
09-12-2007 | 06:38 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
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The last round of contracts were all in BK or the threat of BK. Again the judge ruled in favor of the company 99% of the time.
One thing they got for loosening scope was they did not have to take a bigger pay cut then they did, or more work rule changes, or less sick time, etc.. If they did not bend on scope they would have had to give more somewhere else. None of the choices they had to choose from where good. It was not like they where happy about any of it. What do you think they should have given up? And remember if it was not Scope it has to come from somewhere else.
I want more major jobs. But they need to be good paying jobs or why bother.
"as for the last 2 sentences, please"
I could be wrong but didn't Mesa ask the pilots to fly 737's? And they said no.
One thing they got for loosening scope was they did not have to take a bigger pay cut then they did, or more work rule changes, or less sick time, etc.. If they did not bend on scope they would have had to give more somewhere else. None of the choices they had to choose from where good. It was not like they where happy about any of it. What do you think they should have given up? And remember if it was not Scope it has to come from somewhere else.
I want more major jobs. But they need to be good paying jobs or why bother.
"as for the last 2 sentences, please"
I could be wrong but didn't Mesa ask the pilots to fly 737's? And they said no.
when do you hold management accountable for running an airline? it's never been a pilot contract's that have put an airline under, it's management.
how did southwest continue to turn a profit right after 9-11? remember everyone was paying about the same for fuel then.
why bother having more jobs at the major? 1. you are gaining seniority and don't have to take another paycut. 2. less ability to get whipsawed 3. most likely less time spent at the regional.
I don't think mesa was turning them down so that a parent could fly them. I think they turned them down because they wouldn't cave to JO's cheap wages. If they were high enough I think they would have taken them but they weren't even close. I could be wrong too...
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