for u NWA guys out there...
09-10-2007 | 08:37 AM
#21
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Eric,
If you don't see EVER getting the airplanes back at the majors, then why even bring it up?
I mean what's the point of complaining if you can't conceive of any solutions? That's my point. You are just yapping.
The difference in our examples is key.
In Top Gun when the little guy was yapping at Maverick ("We could have had 'em man!") they were off the airplane oand on the ground. Maverick could not have done anything at that point.
Your Tim Robbins example is great, because he, on the other hand was yelling at him while they were in the air. Maverick was able to take his advice and do something with it.
If you can see my point, it is that you are not being constructive yapping at us while offering no suggestions. This is what I'm saying is disrespectful.
If you say that all you wanted to do is know what we gave up scope in our last K, I answered it in my first post. A bunch of senior guys convinced too many junior guys that it was the best K we could get. It actually saved their pensions and did little else for the rest of us.
Now those senior guys are retiring at a pretty good clip. This airline will be full of junior guys very soon because of it. We have huge numbers of retirements coming up and even if "Age 65" did pass, there would be less effect than there would be at other airlines because of the "saved" pensions I mentioned above. In fact, those pilots who were furloughed towards the tail end of the furloughs are a just few numbers from the left seat of the DC-9. Anyone who has been furloughed knows how to risk things and survive if things don't work out. So, when our K is up in 2011, our pilot group will be full of "junior" people. Scope, retirement, and pay will be at the top of our list.
Personally, I think ALL aircraft with a NWA logo on it should be under one K. If our number one -400 pilot wanted to bid to fly right seat of the SAAB-340, I think he should be able to do it. No whipsawing that way. I also, think there should be longevity pay that is not seat specific (like what UPS has). No whipsawing that way.
Who know's who will be in charge of our union at the time our new K comes up, but hopefully we have a chance to change things for the better. That will if we can remain focused and find people that don't complain just to hear their voices.
New K Now
If you don't see EVER getting the airplanes back at the majors, then why even bring it up?
I mean what's the point of complaining if you can't conceive of any solutions? That's my point. You are just yapping.
The difference in our examples is key.
In Top Gun when the little guy was yapping at Maverick ("We could have had 'em man!") they were off the airplane oand on the ground. Maverick could not have done anything at that point.
Your Tim Robbins example is great, because he, on the other hand was yelling at him while they were in the air. Maverick was able to take his advice and do something with it.
If you can see my point, it is that you are not being constructive yapping at us while offering no suggestions. This is what I'm saying is disrespectful.
If you say that all you wanted to do is know what we gave up scope in our last K, I answered it in my first post. A bunch of senior guys convinced too many junior guys that it was the best K we could get. It actually saved their pensions and did little else for the rest of us.
Now those senior guys are retiring at a pretty good clip. This airline will be full of junior guys very soon because of it. We have huge numbers of retirements coming up and even if "Age 65" did pass, there would be less effect than there would be at other airlines because of the "saved" pensions I mentioned above. In fact, those pilots who were furloughed towards the tail end of the furloughs are a just few numbers from the left seat of the DC-9. Anyone who has been furloughed knows how to risk things and survive if things don't work out. So, when our K is up in 2011, our pilot group will be full of "junior" people. Scope, retirement, and pay will be at the top of our list.
Personally, I think ALL aircraft with a NWA logo on it should be under one K. If our number one -400 pilot wanted to bid to fly right seat of the SAAB-340, I think he should be able to do it. No whipsawing that way. I also, think there should be longevity pay that is not seat specific (like what UPS has). No whipsawing that way.
Who know's who will be in charge of our union at the time our new K comes up, but hopefully we have a chance to change things for the better. That will if we can remain focused and find people that don't complain just to hear their voices.
New K Now
The point of bringing it up, complaining or yapping as you call it is this. You claim to know all of the problems, regional pay/work rules, size, scope, whipsawing and that I am preaching to the choir. Then why in your first post you tell 1900 and I quote "But, don't act like we messed it up for you. We messed it up for ourselves, you are not even here (yet)." 1900 can't even get the the "yet" part because the majors continue giving away bigger and more airplanes. I would have thought the majors learned their lesson with the 50 seaters and yet they gave up 70 seaters. That's why I bring it up so that it doesn't become 100 seaters the next time around.
Now back to top gun analogies. You just explained why things keep getting worse and worse with scope. No ones talking about the ramifications of what's happened in the past. According to you there is no reason to talk about it because it is over. Why do we debrief after sim sessions, have crm classes or talk about accidents. We do that so we learn for our mistakes. We talk about them after the fact.
I'm right there with you about all the flying should be done for the parent airline.
My solution is this, we talk about it so that it doesn't happen again and again. Delta prior to 9-11 on their last contract gave up 70 seaters so that they could get the united contract. They threw the 70 seaters under the bus because they (the current pilots) wouldn't be flying them only the new ones. This is according to my delta buddies. I want to make sure this doesn't happen again for a quick pay day because we all know that delta has lost their pay as well as those 70 seaters.
09-10-2007 | 06:16 PM
#22
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Joined: Dec 2005
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From: M88B
The CR9's are going to fly old Avro routes to begin with. The CR9 is not replacing the 9. If anything will be used in it's place it will be the E170 Compass will be flying. Also, NWA will be the launch customer for the Bombardier C-series. That was the deal made three years ago as a possible replacement for MAINLINE flying of the DC9.
09-10-2007 | 11:30 PM
#23
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Joined: Feb 2007
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From: 765-A
You are correct I don't think the majors will EVER get the airplanes given up back. It would be nice if it happened though. Why bring it up like 1900 did, because the majors continue to give up larger and more airplanes reducing future jobs at the majors.
The point of bringing it up, complaining or yapping as you call it is this. You claim to know all of the problems, regional pay/work rules, size, scope, whipsawing and that I am preaching to the choir. Then why in your first post you tell 1900 and I quote "But, don't act like we messed it up for you. We messed it up for ourselves, you are not even here (yet)." 1900 can't even get the the "yet" part because the majors continue giving away bigger and more airplanes. I would have thought the majors learned their lesson with the 50 seaters and yet they gave up 70 seaters. That's why I bring it up so that it doesn't become 100 seaters the next time around.
Now back to top gun analogies. You just explained why things keep getting worse and worse with scope. No ones talking about the ramifications of what's happened in the past. According to you there is no reason to talk about it because it is over. Why do we debrief after sim sessions, have crm classes or talk about accidents. We do that so we learn for our mistakes. We talk about them after the fact.
I'm right there with you about all the flying should be done for the parent airline.
My solution is this, we talk about it so that it doesn't happen again and again. Delta prior to 9-11 on their last contract gave up 70 seaters so that they could get the united contract. They threw the 70 seaters under the bus because they (the current pilots) wouldn't be flying them only the new ones. This is according to my delta buddies. I want to make sure this doesn't happen again for a quick pay day because we all know that delta has lost their pay as well as those 70 seaters.
The point of bringing it up, complaining or yapping as you call it is this. You claim to know all of the problems, regional pay/work rules, size, scope, whipsawing and that I am preaching to the choir. Then why in your first post you tell 1900 and I quote "But, don't act like we messed it up for you. We messed it up for ourselves, you are not even here (yet)." 1900 can't even get the the "yet" part because the majors continue giving away bigger and more airplanes. I would have thought the majors learned their lesson with the 50 seaters and yet they gave up 70 seaters. That's why I bring it up so that it doesn't become 100 seaters the next time around.
Now back to top gun analogies. You just explained why things keep getting worse and worse with scope. No ones talking about the ramifications of what's happened in the past. According to you there is no reason to talk about it because it is over. Why do we debrief after sim sessions, have crm classes or talk about accidents. We do that so we learn for our mistakes. We talk about them after the fact.
I'm right there with you about all the flying should be done for the parent airline.
My solution is this, we talk about it so that it doesn't happen again and again. Delta prior to 9-11 on their last contract gave up 70 seaters so that they could get the united contract. They threw the 70 seaters under the bus because they (the current pilots) wouldn't be flying them only the new ones. This is according to my delta buddies. I want to make sure this doesn't happen again for a quick pay day because we all know that delta has lost their pay as well as those 70 seaters.
Eric,
I think we are running out of debatable issues. The point I was trying to make is that there is a certain way to do things and a certain way not to do things.
Complaining to a group of people that you one day might want to work for is not a good way to ever work there. I understand your point about not getting to the "majors" because scope is being given away, but unless you are bringing good ideals to fix the situation, I do consider it to be "yapping."
We do have de-brief sessions after sims, CRM, and things like that. But, they are not very productive if they are not conducted with respect.
Imagine after you finished a flight how you would feel if a passenger approached you, in an accusatory way, in front of everyone and asked you why you slammed on the breaks when you exited the runway. Something like, "Hey Captain, why'd you slam on the breaks?"
I'm sure you would feel like he should have found a different way to approach you. There is a way to do things and CRM teaches you to do them with respect. You get better results that way.
As far as my statement that we didn't mess things up for you, we messed it up for ourselves, I stand by it. I think though that you took it out of context. I was not saying that the scope we gave up didn't mess things up for the reigonal pilots. What I was saying is that we screwed ourselves first. We are the ones who got, furloughed and displaced.
My point to 1900, and I guess to you, was that it was rude to act like his boat was the only ship in the ocean. Other people were affected by this crappy contract, too. Most of them had concerns like how they were going to pay the bills after being furloughed or taking a 40% pay cut. Imagine how a furloughed pilot would feel after reading 1900's post when he just got back.
Im sure in his mind he/she would say I got furloughed for 5 years and had to go back to being a FO on the RJ for $15,000 a year and this kid is complaining that he has to wait a little longer to get to the majors. Please.
So anyway, it's September 11th and the last thing I want to do is debate another pilot about how crappy our industry has gotten.
Maybe we can pick up again on Wednesday.
09-11-2007 | 01:51 AM
#24
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 240
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From: Right hemisphere of DCFranken9's brain
I was wondering when you two, New/Eric, were going to give it a rest and stop ****ing and moaning about what has happened. So, as an RJ guy myself (10 yrs of a life sentance, trying to get parolled or transfered), it is time to drive forward, look out the windshield and rip down the rear view mirror. Last I checked, my plane doesn't have a rear view...
09-11-2007 | 05:16 AM
#26
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 639
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From: SAABster
Compass was used to make NWA pilot's bend and is part of the TA which they signed. MESABA was not.
After Compass was formed to provide a low cost replacement for DC-9 flying (which must be replaced because the 9 mods the FAA approved a few years ago are timing out) MESABA was purchased from the evil empire (MAIR).
If you read the TA and read NWA's fleet plan, then you'll see what's going on.
09-11-2007 | 09:03 AM
#30
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From: M88B
Well since you're new to Compass, you may not know why Compass was formed. Compass was formed to go head to head with NWA mainline flying. MESABA was not.
Compass was used to make NWA pilot's bend and is part of the TA which they signed. MESABA was not.
After Compass was formed to provide a low cost replacement for DC-9 flying (which must be replaced because the 9 mods the FAA approved a few years ago are timing out) MESABA was purchased from the evil empire (MAIR).
If you read the TA and read NWA's fleet plan, then you'll see what's going on.
Compass was used to make NWA pilot's bend and is part of the TA which they signed. MESABA was not.
After Compass was formed to provide a low cost replacement for DC-9 flying (which must be replaced because the 9 mods the FAA approved a few years ago are timing out) MESABA was purchased from the evil empire (MAIR).
If you read the TA and read NWA's fleet plan, then you'll see what's going on.
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