for u NWA guys out there...
09-11-2007 | 10:05 AM
#32
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I guess in my mind it is just as bad because I don't see those airplanes ever coming back. this isn't just an NWA problem this is an industry wide problem. scope has been loosened in bad times as well as good times. the next time an airline wants to loosen scope I think they should look at loosening it in the other direction. anything over 200 seats can be flown at a regional. that way everyone on the seniority list is affected and not just the most junior.
09-11-2007 | 10:58 AM
#34
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From: 330 B
I bet NWA mgmnt is reading this entire thread and laughing their asses off. This is exactly what they wanted...we're already divided. I would just like to say as far as XJ vs Compass...neither company has any real control over the planes they're flying, NWA does. The CR9 and E175 are essentially the same thing so there is no point in fighting about it. Am I hurting NWA mainline because XJ assigned me to the CR9 instead of the SF-340? Should I have chosen to delay my career until all the majors got scope figured out? And Eric, what exactly is the point in badgering newknow about what NWA pilots did in the past? Were you there when mangmnt and the BK judge gave them essentially an ultimatum? Have you walked even an inch in his shoes? Oh and for the record, the majors are hiring now...just about all of them, so what exactly is your beef about never getting to one? We all know the situation is ****ed up right now, but pointing fingers at each other helps no one.
09-11-2007 | 12:09 PM
#35
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From: SAABster
So I guess your explanation is that CMP is stealing the -9's flying with the same size and # of a/c You fly, but that doesn't apply to your 900's flying....seems like the pot calling the kettle black to me....Then I guess NWA's situation after exiting bancruptcy didn't have anything to do with your a/c and thats why Your a/c are also included in the SAME scope language as CMP's....I guess I just didn't understand.
It's real easy to look back and make up your own conclusion, but at the time MESABA and NWA were fighting for what ever they could get. Believe me it was an ugly fight.
09-11-2007 | 08:56 PM
#37
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From: 765-A
09-12-2007 | 11:10 AM
#39
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Eric,
I think we are running out of debatable issues. The point I was trying to make is that there is a certain way to do things and a certain way not to do things.
Complaining to a group of people that you one day might want to work for is not a good way to ever work there. I understand your point about not getting to the "majors" because scope is being given away, but unless you are bringing good ideals to fix the situation, I do consider it to be "yapping."
We do have de-brief sessions after sims, CRM, and things like that. But, they are not very productive if they are not conducted with respect.
Imagine after you finished a flight how you would feel if a passenger approached you, in an accusatory way, in front of everyone and asked you why you slammed on the breaks when you exited the runway. Something like, "Hey Captain, why'd you slam on the breaks?"
I'm sure you would feel like he should have found a different way to approach you. There is a way to do things and CRM teaches you to do them with respect. You get better results that way.
As far as my statement that we didn't mess things up for you, we messed it up for ourselves, I stand by it. I think though that you took it out of context. I was not saying that the scope we gave up didn't mess things up for the reigonal pilots. What I was saying is that we screwed ourselves first. We are the ones who got, furloughed and displaced.
My point to 1900, and I guess to you, was that it was rude to act like his boat was the only ship in the ocean. Other people were affected by this crappy contract, too. Most of them had concerns like how they were going to pay the bills after being furloughed or taking a 40% pay cut. Imagine how a furloughed pilot would feel after reading 1900's post when he just got back.
Im sure in his mind he/she would say I got furloughed for 5 years and had to go back to being a FO on the RJ for $15,000 a year and this kid is complaining that he has to wait a little longer to get to the majors. Please.
So anyway, it's September 11th and the last thing I want to do is debate another pilot about how crappy our industry has gotten.
Maybe we can pick up again on Wednesday.
I think we are running out of debatable issues. The point I was trying to make is that there is a certain way to do things and a certain way not to do things.
Complaining to a group of people that you one day might want to work for is not a good way to ever work there. I understand your point about not getting to the "majors" because scope is being given away, but unless you are bringing good ideals to fix the situation, I do consider it to be "yapping."
We do have de-brief sessions after sims, CRM, and things like that. But, they are not very productive if they are not conducted with respect.
Imagine after you finished a flight how you would feel if a passenger approached you, in an accusatory way, in front of everyone and asked you why you slammed on the breaks when you exited the runway. Something like, "Hey Captain, why'd you slam on the breaks?"
I'm sure you would feel like he should have found a different way to approach you. There is a way to do things and CRM teaches you to do them with respect. You get better results that way.
As far as my statement that we didn't mess things up for you, we messed it up for ourselves, I stand by it. I think though that you took it out of context. I was not saying that the scope we gave up didn't mess things up for the reigonal pilots. What I was saying is that we screwed ourselves first. We are the ones who got, furloughed and displaced.
My point to 1900, and I guess to you, was that it was rude to act like his boat was the only ship in the ocean. Other people were affected by this crappy contract, too. Most of them had concerns like how they were going to pay the bills after being furloughed or taking a 40% pay cut. Imagine how a furloughed pilot would feel after reading 1900's post when he just got back.
Im sure in his mind he/she would say I got furloughed for 5 years and had to go back to being a FO on the RJ for $15,000 a year and this kid is complaining that he has to wait a little longer to get to the majors. Please.
So anyway, it's September 11th and the last thing I want to do is debate another pilot about how crappy our industry has gotten.
Maybe we can pick up again on Wednesday.
The way to fix the loosening of scope is to stop it. It shouldn't even be an option at the negociating table. Be the opposite of Nike, Just Don't Do It!
If a customer asked why something happened I'd tell them.
I've had discussions with guys at other airlines about scope and I have told them that it should be shot down on the scope clause alone. It is something that I highly doubt they will ever be able to get back. This was while in the jump seat as well. Sometimes there needs to be tough discussions.
You ask how a person would feel about losing their job and hearing 1900 complain. I would think they would be on his side. Having been a person who lost a job after 9-11 it absolutely floored me when united and Usair gave away more flying while laying off pilots. My initial thought was that any new 50 seaters would start going to the major (even at the low pay) just so that guys don't get furloughed. Due to scope language. That didn't happen and they actually gave away bigger airplanes. If those airplane weren't given up I'm betting the furloughed pilots might have been recalled quicker. Loosening scope just adds to the number of $15,000 FO jobs out their.
So is their any truth to the rumor about parking all of the dc9-30's? How is the scope language worded? can they actually shrink mainline to lower the floor or something like that to make it easier to get more 76 seater's. Is the ratio based on growth or new airplanes?
09-12-2007 | 11:24 AM
#40
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From: Watching, always watching...
Does anyone have any information about interviews? I have not seen or heard anything except for pre 9/11 and instructors.
If anyone has actually interviewed, can you through the rest of us a bone?
If anyone has actually interviewed, can you through the rest of us a bone?
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