Thread: Coming to Envoy: 11 Things You Need to Know
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:35 AM
  #14  
Cyio
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Joined APC: Mar 2017
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Originally Posted by UnprotectdPilot View Post
  1. Flow is projected between 9-10 years for new hires, will likely be just over 7 years.
    American Airlines is hiring 1,000+ per year for the foreseeable future. If you come here today, best case scenario is that you're going to have 7,000-8,000 young new hires ahead of you. If you actually do flow to American (note: flow is not a guarantee), prepare to have a underwhelming career compared to your peers that joined Eaglevoy in 2015-2016. The odds of a sub-seven year flow are increasingly low due to the number of lazy captains waiting in line for their flow number and aren't aggressively pursuing the incredible opportunities at the majors and LCCs.
    I would tend to put this at the seven year mark as well, for an average. Sure this will be outliers but this should be a good worst case number for people to think about. Its a nice bonus to have in your pocket, but I would be actively trying to get out the entirety of my career with Envoy, especially if you have the qualifications.
  2. You probably won't get the ERJ-175 as a new hire (unless you're a cadet).
    For those of you with SJS and want to be a First Officer on the 175 in Dallas, odds are you'll only ever be able to hold it as a captain when you upgrade. However, do you want to be on reserve for well over a year as a CA in DFW? That's reality.
    I would tend to agree here as well but as always, you do occasionally get an all 175 class. The problem with this will be you won't have the seniority to hold a line when you upgrade. If memory serves, ORD 175 CA just got displaced at 1500 and we are looking at DFW 175 CA being at threes years on property for a line. Expect to transition to the 145.
  3. I 'Heart' New York: Expect to be LGA Based
    As a new hire on the ERJ-145, you'll likely go there. As a junior captain on the ERJ-145, if you're holding DFW or ORD, be prepared to be displaced to LGA. Fortunately Envoy has commuter hotels and a letter of agreement that softens the gut punch of New York for the short term, but it's another reality of being here.
    I didn't have to do this, so I cant speak much to it other than without fail, every single person I know hated this process.
  4. LAX is coming.*
    I lied, it's not. This rumor has been at Envoy since LAX was closed down years ago. While technically anything is possible in the future, what appears much more likely is that SkyWest is going to take over AA flying out west and we're going to increase our flying in Chicago and less so Dallas, especially if our 175s ever come back to us from Compass.
    Yeap, dont think we will get LAX. Makes more sense for Skywest to get it. This is coming from someone that would greatly benefit from a west coast base. We should get the planes though.
  5. Reserve rules are not that great relative to the rest of the industry.
    See any of the forum posts and last years 'promise' to keep working on improving reserve. Nothing has happened. Empty promises.
    Agreed, although the company has said that "soon" we may get improvements. Time will tell but they are pretty draconian in the rules.
  6. Employee benefits are mostly garbage.
    Sub-par health insurance, anemic 401(k) match, and so forth. The travel benefits are identical to mAAinline's, which if you can afford to travel might be of value to some people.
    񹙋񹙋񹙋​If you opt for the top tier health, it is pretty decent as I have had no issue with it. I actually feel we are pretty average for the regional level on this one.
  7. American Airlines Group is in serious financial trouble.
    After the longest economic expansion in U.S. history, we're likely overdue for an economic correction in the form of a recession at best. If you're not familiar with AAG's financial woes, just do some searching on ye olde Google. NK and F9 are doing exceedingly well right now and their strategy is going after AA in many of their hubs. AA isn't going to close its doors tomorrow, but since your future is tied to the success of AAG here, I'd be wary of contract improvements, flow through agreements, and so forth. Another bankruptcy is just around the corner.
    Without a doubt my biggest concern with this entire things. AAG is not healthy and are carrying loads of debt, decreasing customer satisfaction and a new pilot contract in the works, which will only worsen the outlook. If we hit a recession, there will be concessions made by the pilots or another BK contract put in place.
  8. Schedules are incredibly inefficient here [to include the other AA WOs].
    Weirdly enough, AA's contract carriers get first dibs on pairings and schedules before their wholly owneds when flying is divy'd out each month. Combine that with the pure lack of work rules (i.e. no min. day pay, trip or duty rigs, etc.), there are a lot of 72 credit lines that block 70-72 hours with 12-14 days off. If your goal is to accumulate flight time rapidly and move on to a major in order to 'disregard females, acquire currency,' there are better options out there.
    񹙋񹙋񹙋​Agreed and I find it really crappy that our competition gets better picks then we do.
  9. Forced upgrades at 950 hours of qualifying 121 time.
    Prepare to be displaced to captain as soon as you hit 950 hours and a vacancy is published. While 98.5% of everyone's goal is to upgrade to get extra money and the TPIC time to adorn your resume with, the fact that the only control you have over timing your resume is to bid senior reserve. If you'd like to time upgrade due to wanting more experience as an FO, for major life events, you're at the whims of captain staffing at Envoy. With major airline being what it is now and for the foreseeable future, displacements will likely regularly continue for years to come.
    񹙋񹙋񹙋​Also true. Senior FO is the perfect spot to sit at and they won't let you do it for long. If this is your goal, kiss it goodbye as I dont see forced upgrades ending anytime soon.
  10. Training is 'okay' at best... if that matters to you.
    Friends that have flowed to AA, left for United, Delta, JetBlue or came here from ExpressJet have said how underwhelming Envoy's training program is. The training is what you make of it and you'll have to be very proactive in teaching yourself, but the training at Envoy is underwhelming. If you want a solid 121 foundation, Envoy is likely not the best place to start your airline career.
    It is certainly very "study on your own" type training. If you struggle with this or cant make a group to study with, you will struggle. The actual line pilots, should get lucky to have one as your trainer are amazing. If you get Mark in ground school, you will also learn a lot. Beyond that, hang on because the experience varies wildly from one to the other.
  11. Go where you can get your hours ASAP if you want a mainline gig.
    This year, 2020, is the year of opportunity. The trend is likely to continue for at least a few more years, so if you're starting today, get in with your hours and get out ASAP while the times are good. Just look at the projected hiring numbers being put out by the various majors:
    Again, agreed. Unless AA is your absolute only option, there are easier ways to get to the majors and will most likely be faster.
    American Airlines = 1,394 pilots (~1,000 street, non-flow hires)
    United Airlines = ~1,300 pilots (avg. per year based on 4,000 new hires by 2022)
    Delta "Air Lines" = 1,300 pilots
    Southwest Airlines = 500+ pilots (likely depends on the MAX coming back)
    JetBlue Airways = 500+ pilots
    Spirit Airlines = 500+ pilots
    Alaska Airlines = 400+ pilots
    Frontier Airlines = 250+ pilots
    Hawaiian Airlines = 150+ pilots
    Allegiant Airlines = 150+ years
    FedEx = 700+ pilots
    UPS = 350+ pilots
    Breeze Airways ("Moxy") = 200+ pilots     (accepting applications here)

    ... and that's not accounting for ACMIs, fractionals, corporate, etc. Tons of opportunity and movement out there. Envoy may not be the best option for getting your hours quickly depending on where you plan to be domiciled.
Just wanted to add, I think Envoy has made huge improvements over the years I have been here, which is great. It doesn't mean they are great yet, but improving. If they could manage 30 a month flow numbers, fix the reserve rules and get those planes from Compass, I think they would be looking highly attractive for a larger pool of pilots.
My responses are underlined.
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