Here's a random sampling of the thread from last fall from the Alaska forum discussing Alaska's substandard TA (that is now their contract), having passed by something like 78% (I think, off the top of my head). Expect the same sort of thing here whenever we get a TA.
It's clear for us, as SWA guys, to see the mental gymnastics the Alaska guys were having to perform to justify their sh***y TA. But it won't be nearly as clear to recognize our own delusional thinking when we're doing it ourselves about our own situation (for example, by attempting to explain away SWA's much longer upgrades by saying OAL's much earlier upgrades are somehow not really that early because they're not available at all the bases and "there's a reason they're junior," and blah, blah, blah, blah, and so on). Cue the circus music.
Originally Posted by
KnockKnock
This line of thinking is exactly how we fell so far behind the industry. Time, value of money. Lock this in now and get 'em next time. We'll lose too much money due to the time it takes to continue negotiating. Etc. Etc. This thinking is why we, at AS, in 2022, had to spend all our negotiating time and capital on Scope and Work rules. Things almost every other major airline has had for years if not decades. The NC focued on the same 4 pillars from the JCBA negotiations. Did "mostly" fine there but left the rest of the contract untouched. We won't see this negotiating environment again. This is a once in a career moment. There is no getting them next time, my friend.
Originally Posted by
conquestdz
When I see what's really in there, I think we are getting them this time, and we will probably be getting them next time too. The pilot shortage, which is our true leverage isn't going anywhere in the mid term. In the short term it could subside during a recession, but it will be back with a vengeance after.
Originally Posted by
OTZeagle1
I was a huge advocate for a new contract. I wanted the industry for all Alaska pilots. I just wasn’t stupid and wanting $500hr, 25 days a month off, and a new pony!
Originally Posted by
conquestdz
One man's bravery is another's stupidity much as one man's "capitulating to the fear of a downturn" is another's "making the most rational decision based on the best information available". This TA has the potential to be really big for us even though there are a couple holes in it. It seems to me that passing this is the logical move. If the economy does crash, we will be sitting pretty for a couple years with nice raises and QOL. If it doesn't, then the pilot shortage will become more acute, we will snap up with our peers as they scramble to compete, and we will continue to have the necessary leverage to fill those TA holes because no airline can afford to be behind in the job market if they want to grow or even stay the same size.
Originally Posted by
conquestdz
Which holes are you referring to? The carve out for the red eye turns stinks, but it's a relatively small portion of our bid packages and not worth torpedoing the whole deal over. What else do you see as missing?
Originally Posted by
Back2future
Only JetBlue has wocl override.
reserve days off is better than some plus the reserve work rules are better than most.
DC is at par or better, with a snap up clause.
Sick time is par or better
So you're saying you think we can go back and double or even triple retro and keep all the other improvements in the time it would have taken for the new pay rates and work rules to generate
whatever increase your new retro fantasy has?
Originally Posted by
OTZeagle1
Whatever dude… I told everyone when the contract was done, remember that. From the word go, I said 80%, because those were the numbers, my actual prediction was 81% and I lined it up for everyone. I guaranteed it pasted by 75% +-3, knowing it would for sure pass by that margin. what did people say to that 🤔. Sorry dude it did not pass by 85%. If I said 85% everyone would have jumped on it, see you were wrong, it wasn’t by 85%.
How about the exact upgrades to the contract, how about the exact book order. Nope back then most loud VX were still convinced the bus was staying. Go back and look, not obvious then, just obvious now.
Yup, I gave the exact furlough numbers, the union saved that.
Yes, my understanding is SWA kicked our tires last spring, AS talked with B6 but both wanted branding and control. We have been shopping HAL for the past couple of years, and yes UAL is very interested in SEA. There have been so many tea leaves flying of late for HAL, I have to believe something is about to go down. I guess we then find out if SK has to have SEA. I personally want to see us stay independent.
You know why you all hate me? I am happy, I like Alaska Airlines, and I have been very fortunate outside of aviation. I work for Alaska by choice. You all hate everything Alaska, your miserable, rude, bitter, and broke.
You all hate Alaska and I love our not so perfect company, that really makes your little group of 30, lose their minds🤭
Originally Posted by
Carebear
This entire subforum is pretty much a circlejerk of 10 guys spending their entire lives bashing otz and shyguy for ever posting a shred of optimism on any issue at all. The only rumors you want to read are those of doom and gloom, and nonstop bashing of anything that is associated with any airline. You spent an entire month continuously demeaning these 2 and anyone else that didn’t agree with the views of the other 18% of your entire pilot group.
I will give you credit though, I’m kind of surprised you haven’t already started conspiring to storm Seatac to try and decertify the ALPA election (then again, it hasn’t officially been signed yet). Who knows, maybe your Scope bag tags will be replaced with, “Not my CBA” tags.
Originally Posted by
av8or
Honest question:
Do you you legitimately not see a fundamental difference between someone making a case for how they read the negotiating environment, their outlook on the possibility of economic decline etc, and how that effects their decision matrix VS ….. someone saying that because they are voting yes, they must be “insert favorite pejorative” ?
One person is making a case for why they are voting yes…. end of story. The other is make
an assertion that whatever their rationale is, they are …. an idiot, chick shizzle, koolaid drinker.
You seriously see those as the same thing? 🤔🤔
As for your search, and citation of OTZ’s rhetoric… again…. That’s ONE dude. Besides…. I’m not defending EITHER side when they start throwing names because they disagree.
Bottom line… there’s 3000+ pilots that voted. And 3000+ reasons why. That’s the process. To group and ascertain the reasons, morality, intelligence of those who voted differently….. group them all together and label it, is wrong…. On both sides. IMO