Terrible ethics
 

I fly on AS often and have numerous friends that work there. I generally had respect for your management team (as an outsider) because I (kind of) feel like they practiced what they preach.

But no more.

I have friends that are in your Pathways program with Horizon, and I’m embarrassed at what a laughing stock and sh*tty program that truly is. Your management team locks people in as future AS pilots, and then keeps moving the goal post further away on them.

Congrats, we’ll hire you at Alaska. But no, you can’t interview as an off the street hire and get here sooner without pulling your guaranteed job offer through the Pathway’s program away. Even though your credentials are great (and we’ve already hired you), I wouldn’t give up that guaranteed job offer for our other, harder, interview process that has no guarantees! Thanks for staying a Horizon employee for another three years. :)

Or, Congrats, we’ll hire you, only to now (as of yesterday) require you to have 1,000 PIC at Horizon before we bring you onboard. So for those FO’s who were “hired,” don’t wait to upgrade and enjoy your quality of life knowing you have a job in hand. Because it’s not there until you get hours that weren’t required when we “hired” you...

How bogus is this place!?! It’s not the requirements (1,000 PIC) that frustrate me. It’s the fact that they are changing the requirements of those already vested and “hired” into the program. They waited 8 months to make this announcement, so guys could have made life choices to upgrade sooner if they’d known the requirements when interviewing.

What a trash move by angle lake. Your management team doesn’t behave and act as they preach with their core values. What an embarrassment.

I will never recommend them to any friends as a place to work. This is the 4th bogus move that I’ve seen that is just insulting to people who strive to do their best every day, for a crappy management team that doesn’t seem to care about anyone but themselves. Not impressed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not just 1000 PIC, but 2000 hours total at Horizon. So if you came in with previous time and upgraded fairly quick you are gonna need more than 1000 PIC.

You’re an outsider complaining to a bunch of Alaska pilots about our managements questionable ethics regarding a guaranteed interview program? Get in line buddy, we got our own ****** to deal with...

Flows, guaranteed interviews, promises, upward track, whatever they are called. Their primary goal is to get the seats at the regional filled and staffed properly.

Once scooter trash always scooter trash

I spent about 5 minutes at Horizon. In that 5 minutes, I observed that these minimums are completely discretionary, particularly if you will add to Alaska’s “Diversity” numbers.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Take this to the Horizon board. You don’t have to convince anyone here our management team has questionable ethics. We live it daily. This would be more useful for prospective QX hires who are most likely reading QX threads. AS pilots are not involved whatsoever in how the CPP program is executed. All we can do about this is nod and smile.

Besides, requiring PIC (esp in this day n age when it’s east to obtain in terms of quick seniority) is a good thing. I know a QX guy who said some think the Q is hard to upgrade to, the EJet is easier, but their mentality is I already got my pathways job so why should I upgrade? Some don’t want to risk getting a black mark on their record. This PIC change is a good thing. It’s not 2007-2012 anymore. Go upgrade and enjoy.

Nobody is saying that PIC ISN’T a good thing. But changing the rules after the deal has been made is unethical. Arguably, it’s breach of contract. Are you really OK with that?

I understand that the original deal was different than the one you (or I) would have wanted them to make, but are you really OK with management simply voiding the previous deal when they change their minds or - alternatively - that ‘bait and switch’ had always been the going in plan?

I’m at Alaska and I have 422 hours of TPIC 🤣🤣🤣

Like most airline agreements unless it was written into the CBA, you’re at the whims of what mgt decides to do. Historically speaking, flow agreements never really worked out. Now it’s a changing tide with AA taking lots of their wholly owned flow pilots. I’m not surprised at this change, after all the goal is to keep both seats filled at the regional.

How was Pathways written? Into your offer letter, the CBA, or just some side letter best effort thing by mgt? If it’s the latter, they almost always have a weasel clause that allows the program to be modified as necessary by mgt.

According to the email, the average Alaska new hire has 6,200 with 2,200 PIC...

Have you been asked to be the director of training or CP yet? Oh wait, did your dad work here?

Like other flow programs it's sole purpose is staff the feeder and manage attrition.

If you sign up for the flow, you take the good with the bad. In many cases the upside for the pilot is that he can get to mainline without putting in the effort or jumping through the hoops. Also upside for those who would never get hired OTS.

Don't like it? Don't play the regional game. It is what it is.

Terrible ethics
 

I couldn’t care less about the required minimums.

I do care about changing the requirements almost 8 months after introduction of the program. AS managers aren’t complying with their company core values, and are moving the goal post as they see fit.

We all know why they are doing it (to staff the regionals). I just wish they implemented this program from the beginning, or started with people hired through the Parhways program from here forward.

I don’t like them NOT complying with their verbal contract. It’s disingenuous and not befitting a company with these written core values.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you know how many times AA changed their flow agreements?

Has there been a management team that hasn’t altered their “flow” or “CPP” programs without informing the pilots? Continental abruptly ended their flow leaving hundreds of Continental Express pilots hanging. When they were hired, they were told it was the last interview they would ever do... Not so much. How about the Compass pilots that were no longer offered a flow to NW/Delta after Delta sold them to TransStates. How many Eagle pilots have been left flapping in the breeze due to AA’s constant rearranging of their flow? Have you or your friends compared their situation to pilots in the CPP program at UAL? I’ve heard many a disgruntled pilot complain about that program. Do you really think your friends are experiencing a unique situation. Welcome to the airlines. I still think this should be taken to the QX boards because they’re the ones that need to hear/discuss this, not us.

Terrible ethics
 

To be honest, I know jack and squat about other airlines flow through programs. I’m fairly new to this game. I guess I’m just naive and thought companies would follow through on their agreements.

Silly me. Lesson learned.

This is my first time even hearing that companies do this (change their agreements mid-way through). I think it’s morally wrong. And in this case, it’s affected a few of my friends and it frustrates me on a personal level.

I know you may not care—I’m not asking for sympathy. My friends (the ones hurt by this) aren’t even asking for that. I just wanted to make sure that if a pilot hiring manager from AS looks at this thread, that they know that I think they’re pieces of sh*t and disingenuous. And I hope some wannabe AS pilots read this thread and know that the management team there is only about themselves and that they don’t practice what they preach.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You sold yourself short?

"Never the twain shall meet" is how most airline management operates.
Some are better than others, but the sad reality is that bean counters rule the roost.

You wont find many at a Alaska Airlines giving a rip what goes on at a completely different company. Horizon is a wholly-owned, CPA(capacity purchase agreement) company. They provide regional lift for us just as Skywest Airlines does. Air Group is not an airline, there are no Air Group employees. Just Alaska Airlines inc. and Horizon Air Industries.
We at Alaska Airlines inc are well aware that our management team are a bunch of lying SOB’s. We also are happy that the carrot and stick program requires PIC time.
Not much more to say except Horizon Air has always been a s41tty little regional that treats all their employees equally s41tty

All Compass pilots that were hired and started class with a flow got the flow. Those that didn't get the flow started there knowing they weren't getting it.

Then write them an angry letter, they sure don't listen to us :rolleyes:

I find this comment delightfully hypocritical.

Except for the different times comment. Today many regionals are basically hiring DECs. There’s really no excuse in today’s environment. Besides, we’re talking about a flow program, not off the street hiring (of which could still come with 0 TPIC).

And this surprises you because...

Apparently you've never paid attention when the Anglers negotiate contracts.

A couple years ago, AS would send out an email inviting you to apply, then you'd get called by "smart recruiters" where you'd get the hard sell on why you really don't match up with AS just yet.....so you need to really consider Horizon for employment. It was like a bad time share proposal....but all the sell without the reward.

So there were no new hires in the pipe that had the rug pulled out from under them after the sale? I was under the impression that those 400 some pilots that got the flow, struck a separate deal and the new pilots didn’t get in on it. I’ll ask my buddy, he’s a product of the program. Maybe I miss understood him the last time we talked about it.

“Airlines are some of the most ethically managed company’s in US!”..... said no one....EVER. (Except for maybe those associated with Herb Kelleher, and he’s gone.)

If you’re gonna use “ethics” as a benchmark for who you’re gonna fly on, you’re gonna need a bigger boat.

Recently, with a few exceptions, large corporations are not known for their ethical behavior.

Compass was created by NWA with an agreement that Compass pilots would flow up when hiring began again and furloughed NWA pilots would flow back to the left seat of a E175 when times were tough. Only a few furloughed NWA DC9 FO's flowed back after 911. After the DAL/NWA merger, all Compass pilots on the list when NWA created them were offered a flow to Delta. IIRC..some flowed without a degree..maybe 700 total? Once that was complete..DAL sold off Compass to Trans States. All Compass pilots hired after that date did not have a flow agreement.

I dont think any original Compass pilots had the rug pulled out from under them..but your buddy knows more about it than I do.

I'm glad DAL honored the flow up to mainline for those that agreed to a flow back to the left seat of the E175..even though it was negotiated by NWA before the merger.

Jmho..CG

To the OP. Please check the history of flow through agreements and how they have worked out overall.

I’m not saying you’re wrong. However it’s always best to try and get hired someplace based on effort and merit. As opposed to relying on a flow through.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Eye have all the flow I need from drinking a 30 of NattyBo last night son.

I remember when Compass was created. ‘06-‘07 with the old ACA certificate right? I interviewed there when faced with furlough in ‘08. I ended up staying at my current airline at the time but my buddy left and is now at DAL. I thought I remembered him telling me that at the time of sale to Trans States, there were new hires who would not get the flow agreement. It sounds like from you and Bradium, he was referring to future new hires. I was under the impression he meant those already in class a those fresh out of the school house. I’ll ask him and put the issue to rest.

My other cases in point stand though. I know many a former CoEx pilot that was stripped of their flow. I know many an Eagle/Envoy pilot that got jacked around on their flow. I also know many a current XJT pilot with complaints about the way UAL has handled their CPP.

All I’m saying is the OP’s friends are not experiencing anything new to this industry. The aged old carrot of flow/CPP has bitten many a pilot in the rear and should be used as a back up at best. As someone said earlier in the thread, if you’re basing your flying on the ethics of airline management, you’d better get yourself a reliable car or good pair of walking shoes because EVERY management team has employed unethical practices. If he were to scan these boards, he’d find many a bait-n-switch story.

Was that on OTZ's boat? :)

You guessed it brochacho. All the Cheetos I could handle as well. It’s a classy yacht.

How to respond to this thread? Laughable and unsurprising? Most of my F.O.'s here at Alaska dont have any or little PIC time. It doesnt make them bad pilots, just less experienced. And they've got the time to learn what they need to learn.

To think that alaska managment can be trusted to do anything but it what's best for profitability and corporate welfare is a dream everyone should wake from. Once you discard their lies, stop reading their emails and start reading their financial statements (10q/10k) you will find they are quite predictable. Then make your career choices appropriately.

This is why I say airline pilots are idiots. They think the company revolves around them. Of course management does what's best for profitability. That's their job, and their duty to shareholders.

Like losing almost 50% of your company’s value? 😂

Or paying $4B for something worth $1.5B?