Spirit And management working cohesively
 

Congratulations to Spirit ALPA and their management. Zero furloughs and zero concessions. Job well done for all of them.

Same with Frontier now..

I was surprised that Frontier's COLA (their version of an ETO) is for a 35 hour line... I thought our 45 hr option was below industry standard, but in reality is above average for ULCCs at this point.

I still wish the powers that be would get together and negotiate some sort of furlough mitigation agreement. I understand that no furloughs might be too tough a deal to get done, but some sort of furlough mitigation agreement should absolutely get done imo - even if it is just extending 45 hr ETO lines with the cost savings going directly to furlough mitigation like NK and F9. Then if CARES 2 happens like EXCO keeps saying is gonna happen, then we can tear it up and get back to our regular lines.

Also, does anybody know what Frontier's min guarantee is for a line holder? I thought it was 75 but I could be wrong.

Kudos to Frontier and Spirit and their Unions for getting these done. I'm sure their junior pilots will be forever grateful.

It's difficult to agree to anything with so many prior outstanding issues needing addressed first.

That's total garbage. When mass furloughs are on the line during the biggest catastrophe in the history of our industry, the priority has to be protecting jobs. That is the most fundamental reason for having organized labor and paying dues. Protecting jobs must always get a free pass to the front of the line. If you get terminated, does your termination case have to go to the back of the line so the "prior outstanding issues needing addressed first" can get resolved? H#ll no. What we are talking about here is potentially 10-20% of our dues paying members being kicked to the street. Saving their jobs has to be the priority. I don't think you really meant what you wrote: that avoiding furloughs cannot be addressed until the other arbitrations (what was the recent one, VFN arbitration right) can be resolved. That's not word for word what you wrote, but that is what you are saying and that is garbage if you truly believe that. Comparing a VFN arbitration to protecting 100 jobs and keeping 100 members off the street then you don't the first thing about what strong organized labor groups are built on.

Having said that, I totally get the extreme skepticism by our pilot group with management, but its not like our plight has been that much worse than Spirit's. Spirit spent basically the same amount of time getting their contract and had to fight tooth and nail. Or, look at Frontier. Management got huge concessions during the recession and did avoid bankruptcy, but then it took Frontier years to get management to agree to a competitive contract. I think Spirit and Frontier got something done because both parties wanted to avoid furloughs and were willing to negotiate even though there were a litany of other things that they could not agree on. Spirit was able to avoid furloughs altogether. Frontier has yet to be seen (tho I'd be shocked if they got to the poiint where they avoid furloughs altogether). These are telling examples that should be scrutinized.

If I'm a Frontier CA and my line guarantee is 35hrs on leave compared to 50 at Spirit, am I gonna be super frustrated? Of course. But agreeing to voluntary furlough mitigation endeavors is better than nothing imo. I've said it before, I wish there was a 50hr leave option (even 45hrs would do) that I could bid for to help reduce our junior members from hitting the street. One CA on a reduced line like that can save a first or second year FO (of which we have a lot of) from getting furloughed.

Basically, their livelihood has to take priority over the CBA fights we are having (of which there are plenty and I am not minimizing them - HDMWD anyone???). But these junior pilots pay dues too and their jobs have to be the priority - even if it means compartmentalizing all of the scheduling violations the company routinely hits us with and hammering out a furlough mitigation agreement.

In your view, should we abandon seniority to prevent furlough?

I don’t recall him/her saying anything like that. I think he’s saying he wants some form of mitigation, whether that be like your peers at Frontier or Spirit, he doesn’t care but something needs to be done in a time like this and the union and company should put aside their differences to try and help the families that will inevitably be harmed and possibly destroyed by a furlough.


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This person with 8 total posts can answer for them self.

Hello management. Not going to happen. You had your way squandering millions on the swamp, wiping your a$$’s with our contract. That’s coming out of your pockets. Not ours.

Me trying to encourage a strong organized labor group that won't wilt under pressure is now management? Nice ad hominem attack. Think about how strong the Spirit pilot group will be when the next open up negotiations? You think a single member in that entire group is not firmly committed to their Union and will not readily sacrifice for one another? I'm damn envious of Spirit pilots right now because there is no dissension within those ranks. The most junior pilots know that the most senior pilots sacrificed and stepped up to the plate for them and they will be forever grateful. That is a strong, united labor group that will withstand any of the garbage management tactics that will be tried against them when they open up negotiations. Talk of "brotherhood" and "unity" might be catchphrases to you, but those are ideals to live up to if you believe in strong organized labor - which I absolutely do.

And no, I'm definitely not looking to furlough out of senior - of course not. I'm just hoping that we get the option for furlough mitigation like our peers. I'd like to see some sort of voluntary ETO program with a 1:1 so every senior volunteer mitigates the furlough of a junior pilot (F9's current agreement); or where the Union and Company agree that all cost savings due to voluntary ETOs would directly offset the need to furlough (Spirit's agreement). If there was a furlough mitigation agreement with purely voluntary participation and it saved even ONE pilot from hitting the street that would absolutely be worth it imo.

That offer was rejected by the company already.

Of course not, that is a ridiculous notion. My hope is that a voluntary furlough mitigation agreement is reached where every reduced line that is volunteered by a senior pilot can reduce the number of furloughs on a 1:1 basis just like Frontier. Spirit's agreement is a little more complex because it is based on cost savings going directly to the preservation of pilot employment and that would require agreement with the Company's financial calculations (which i find highly skeptical given the SS swamp financials that are absurd and in no way realistic).

I never said anything about ignoring seniority and I hope we never compromise on seniority requirements - our contract is based on seniority and it has to be honored by the Company AND the members.

That's not my understanding. From what i've been told in the videos and fb, both sides are arguing about "no furlough clauses" when in imo they should be talking about furlough mitigation clauses.

From the video in Vegas, the union's offer was an ETO for a full no furlough clause - not furlough mitigation. The company offered STTO with a no furlough clause. Both of these offers look like they're shooting for a complete no furlough agreement and i just don't think that is realistic.

The union can not force management to negotiate. When I get furloughed I know who made those decisions and it will not be any of my fellow pilots.

Are you an airline pilot on the Allegiant seniority list?

Based on what was shared the company was asking for too much. No way I would expect the union to agree to what was offered. If they did I would probably quit anyway. Personally I would prefer to preserve the contract, maintain the sanctity of seniority and get furloughed. At least then the job is worth having when/if I get recalled.

Agree, no airline pilot is going to agree to allow furloughs by base and seat out of seniority order, at the end of the day you have to be able to look at your fellow pilot in the eye, and pilots from other carriers as well. What we had before was working, a voluntary time off system for any pilot who wanted it. The company could also consider buying pilots out as well, I'm sure there are many who would choose that option if it was attractive enough.

I would take a voluntary 35 hours guarantee for 3 months to go on a long vacation. Heck, even 15!
They can offer it even after covid is long gone, during the slow months. IT'S VOLUNTARY, WHO CARES!!
Am I the only one finding hilarious seeing guys getting all worked up for a VOLUNTARY program?
​​Lol

The rest of us care that prefer to take a similar offer to NK, ALK, WN, AA, DAL, UAL etc. (50-55 hours)

V-O-L-U-N-T-A-R-Y
they can offer 0 hours leaves, who cares!

Those possibly getting furloughed or downgraded also care. More would take a fair industry average offer of 50 hours, which could save some jobs.

Absolutely. The more hours the better, as long as it's voluntary. The less hours, the less people will take it. And they will have to furlough deeper. When comparable ulcc didn't. Good luck with future hiring after that.
oh btw, I'm on the furlough list.

I am too. The company already wouldn't bite on the union's ETO offer though. What will it take?

At this point, anything below 45 hours is a nonstarter IMO. That is the bar that's been set. Wouldn't surprise me tho if management tried to pass a 35 hour package and told us that's what Frontier got take it or leave it. To make a furlough mitigation agreement actually work you have to incentivize the most senior pilots on property to take the leave because that is what management wants - to pay 12 year CAs as few hours as possible. That is the savings and that is our leverage.

The Company rejected the union's ETO offer that had a full no furlough clause. What we are talking about here and what is industry standard is a furlough mitigation agreement. Try to reduce the number of furloughed pilots via voluntary participation in an extended leave program for 45-50 hrs (get out of here with 35 hours...looking at you Indigo/F9).

Based on the video from Vegas, the union's offer was tied to complete no furlough commitment, not furlough mitigation - that's a big distinction. All the agreements getting done are based on furlough mitigation, and my two cents is that an agreement with a full no furlough clause is not at all realistic.

Nor is furloughing and/or displacing in reverse seniority order which was managements demand and final offer.

I absolutely disagree with you! Getting VFN’s corrected needs to be a top priority. We all know when they furlough the company will furlough deep. We will be inadequately staffed. We need to have resolutions for the VFN’s because there will be more than ever and I for one want to be paid correctly.

Every inch of the contract will be defended. G4 management has no credibility with this pilot group. Time and time again we are lied to and ignored. Any agreement will not have any language that allows to suborn or in any way subvert the industry standard of seniority.

Are you an airline pilot on the Allegiant seniority list? (second request)

Simple question. We know the answer.

At that point wouldn't *not* furloughing pilots be based on management's good will? We all know how that works.

I'm a bit slow. So maybe I missed something but where is this VOULUNTARY crap coming from?

The company to my knowledge has only offered to INVOLUNTARILY furlough out of seniority (temporary I guess) and that's where the torch and pitchfork crowd is coming from. Maybe there have been more negotiations that I haven't seen/read but what union in their right mind would accept involuntary furlough out of seniority order no matter what clauses they add?

I understand this is an anonymous internet forum, so conspiracy theories and false info run rampant. But there is no offer of 50 or 45 or even 35 hours to my knowledge (that doesn't include INVOLUNTARY furloughs). So as pilots we of course will speculate all day and compare company X to company Y till the cows come home, but there is currently not even a real offer to consider unless I am not privy to something.

Maybe G4 furloughs can apply to be managers over at SunSeeker? (OK that was unnecessary sarcasm but I couldn't help it)

I hope everyone keeps their job at every airline. Good luck!

Their email said volunteers could contact them and be considered for furlough ahead of a more junior pilot.

Well that would be just a normal voluntary furlough then right? Where does the involuntary come in? Is it because it's done by base? That would make sense I guess from the company standpoint but not the union.

The only thing involuntary is forced STTO/ETO if there aren’t enough volunteers. And some guy throws a fit because someone junior to him in another base doesn’t get forced take ETO. The other option is to be displaced and forced to pack up and move. 45 hours or pack up and move? 🤔

Please do the furloughees a favor and not pick up any OT or VFNs while someone is out on the street. Those furloughed pilots could have been used to cover those open trips. Of course, my opinion. You do you. But it’s your conscience you have to answer to.

Why not? The reality is furloughs happen in this career. I have paid my dues and earned my seniority here. You most likely do not know what it was like to work here several years ago, and do not realize how important it is to defend the CBA and honor seniority. It is unfortunate guys will be getting furloughed but, the rest of us who have paid our dues should not have to suffer as well.

1) Beacuse it's selfish.
2) Because it's not ALL about you.
3) Because until trips start NOT getting covered, no one will get called back.
4) See 1-3

Please....I’m sure you’re a chest thumper all about not picking up trips during SAP or open time to get ABG while guys are on the street. Do you have the slightest clue how much income would be lost throughout the pilot group during the duration of a furlough (6 months, 12 months, 18 months?)I get it, furloughs suck, most of us have been there before. However, I refuse to be punished through something that is no fault of my own.

Wow....... 🥴