Monkey Wrench

Not all flows are sh*t pilots, but most sh*t pilots are flows.

Fighter guys have trouble with visual approaches for some reason. F-whatevers must not use the glideslope...

mainlineAF

I bet you’re a real joy to fly with.

RhinoBallAuto

I won’t dispute the first statement, as transport category airplanes are a different animal... but the second is a little bit inflammatory, don’t you think?

Pretty sure USN F-whatevers pretty much live by the visual glideslope.

BigfootCapo

Using common sense, if an airman received an ATP at the age of 23 and got hired at a legacy carrier at 24, how much skill, knowledge and experience could he/she possibly have related to the job he/she was hired for - flying an airliner. One year of airline experience. Hardly qualified in comparison to many many others applying for the same position.

A330FoodCritic

Difficulties with what? They took out at least 50% of the systems content since the early 2000s. We don't shoot NDBs anymore. Don't do the step down Tacan/VOR. The 3X rule still works. The 10 knots per mile slow down still works.

The syllabi I have been through lately are spelled out pretty well on what you are going to do.

What possibly could people be having trouble with?

Clint

I heard the opposite when I went through (I’m prior mil) and I continue to hear it. There is a bit of a transition, but the main difference that was noted from the ground instructors perspective was the preparation. Mil guys tend to come in overprepared and still feel like they haven’t prepped enough. The flying differences may cause them to lag a little at first, but the effort makes that a short time, IMO.

It’s because it’s a completely different sight picture. Fighters aim at the threshold and try to touch down in the first 1000 feet. Aiming at 1000 feet looks totally different and takes a little while to get used to.

Sliceback

Up to six yrs. There is no Age 23 minimum hiring age at a regional.

Twenty three yr olds are upgrading to CA after having to wait yrs to upgrade because they weren’t 23 yrs old yet (ATP minimum).

Sliceback

It’s interesting asking former military guys about the transition. Frequent areas mentioned are - taxi clearances, clearances in general, SID’s, STAR’s, variety of approach types flown, congestion (radio and traffic). Flap scheduling (departure and arrival). Multi page EP checklists. With if/or decisions choices. None of it is brain surgery but it’s different. And frequently it’s the automation use, and newer approaches and their procedural requirements, that confuse guys.

Years ago most of the fighter EP checklists can be done from memory. Between simplicity, few options, and frequent exposure you frequently knew exactly what page to turn to and you knew the steps. My current a/c has 331 pages of EP stuff. Some stupid, one item issues. Others are pages and pages long with multiple if/or choices.

Watch a formation takeoff video. Airplane wise there is very little management to do - gear up. On the newer models you’re done. Older models require moving the flap handle, once.

Buddy’s son taught ATP MEI. Two or three day course. Mostly former military guys. He said they were sharp “but I was always impressed by the fighters guys. They learned really fast.” He said they showed up prepared and had studied. But they would struggle on day 1. Going from an F- or C- to a Seneca. Props, mixtures, cowl flaps, lots of rudder and little performance(ie almost none). “But they would improve so much on day two. You could tell they had listened and would do it the next day.”

Mover

I disagree with most of this. Approaches were actually harder in fighters because for checkrides we'd often fly full procedure high approaches on steam gauges - no FMS to conveniently follow the magenta line. We flew SIDs and arrivals (not STARs) all the time. Most bases have their own arrival procedures because of the congestion. We also copied clearances and received reroutes so I'm not sure what that's about. Hell, it's way easier to look up a fix in an FMS than to get a full route clearance from center and spend the next ten minutes hand-jamming coordinates from a high chart.

Every fighter I've flown has had complex EPs with if/then choices and Flap scheduling is ridiculous (why does any airplane need so many flap settings as the 737?!), but not rocket science.

The hardest part is on the ground. Figuring out when you're talking to ramp, auto-calling ground or waiting for them to call you, while doing busy-work checklists and load closeouts... that's all different. It takes some getting used to. And that's the hardest part - getting used to the busy work and the ad nauseum checklists while dealing with someone else in the cockpit.

The ATP in a Seneca (or dutchess) is something that seriously needs to be done away with for military. A form 8 should be a mil equivalency for the ATP (plus the written). Nothing on that test has anything to do with Pt 121 flying.

SFly

And....class drops for March?

Very interesting discussion on military vs civilian vs flow vs age vs training vs experience. Maybe start a new thread to continue it. In the meantime, how about how junior the MD80 is getting at DFW?