Even with the cuts American is flying 15-30% or more than Delta and United. will that mean more revenue? It hasn’t in the past, but maybe now after cutting 30000 employees and simplifying the fleet? The 2nd quarter report will be interesting.

why isn’t American projecting a robust hiring schedule next year. I don’t get why Delta needs 200 pilots a month if American only needs 50

Could the American pilots currently soak up this demand if there were delta style (200%) green slips?

couldn’t agree more. Need to be happy with what you have sometimes. I’m stuck working an office job on medical leave right now and it is the WORST

Until the newbies are actually sitting in their new birds, all these new hire projections are just posturing.

The only thing I can think is AA claims they executed their 2024 playbook in 2020, parking the 190, 330, 75/6. They claim they have or will have the same overall available seat mile inventory even with the 3 fleets parked. They claim they are more efficient with only 4 fleets and the same seat mile inventory.

Delta is probably projected to be down seat mile inventory parking the 777, 80’s, and some 717. They never claimed their COVD decisions were an accelerated execution of a 2024 plan. They never claimed their 2020 decisions would retain 2019 seat mile inventory. It also doesn’t seem like they'll exit COVID with only 4 fleet types.

IMO, this has shown Delta was a more profitable airline because they held more accountability over D0 with more departments than AA. They were not more profitable because their mgmt team were higher achieving “intellectuals” with more “vision”.

The need to hire more than what is physically achievable is a failure to plan, not a symptom of “too much success”.

fixed it for you.

I realize is not a completely risk free career change-- but knowing that my career ladder in my current field has topped out makes me at least want to play the pilot career game. I have enough time off to do both careers for a little while to see how it goes.

If you enjoy flying go get your private pilot and maybe your instrument rating and enjoy flying. Being an airline pilot (in my opinion) isn’t a job for someone who enjoys flying. Enjoying flying is a huge bonus, but loving to travel is really the key. If you dislike traveling or think you may grow sick of it (as I have after 15 years) the drag of it all will wear on your love of flying.

^^^ This.

Take everything you hate about traveling (running late, waiting in a line 50 deep to depart, deicing, maintenance delays, diversions, poor sleep in declining hotels, insufficient time between flights to get food or coffee or even use the restroom, the monotony of the same thing over and over and over, waiting for rampers, the decline of civility) and multiply that times 20 legs (typical 4-5 day trip at a regional).

But you can usually take a minute and enjoy a sunset, so that's a plus.

All of this tends to kill your idealistic vision of this career (and subsequently your love of flying).

If you love flying, stick to hundred dollar hamburgers. If you already make six figures and are looking for a change, consider CRNA, PA, actuary-all jobs that earn well into six figures and aren't really affected by many of the "swan events" that can torpedo this career. You can also start earning good money in another career sooner than you can as an airline pilot.

Also, the whole idea that you don't take work home is false. You still need to do quarterly training, submit your bids, get your uniform dry cleaned, prep for trips, plan your commute unless you already live in a junior base, commute to work and then back home, live with the anxiety of losing your medical or getting busted on a bad day by a fed or check airman, take calls from the company on why you went around, file ASAPs, deal with pay disputes after a reroute or tag-on, etc.

This is from the perspective of a line holder. I haven't sat reserve since the regionals. Reserve is a entirely different level of pain, especially if you have to commute to reserve.

Jeez, you guys are brutal. The worst guys to fly with are the ones who don’t love flying and never have. You’re going to come all this way to become a pilot on a whim? No one does that.

Dry cleaning your uniform? Lol

Answering calls from the company? You literally don’t have to do that. Call the asap guy back the next time you’re sitting at work waiting. You could have a work phone that you leave in the crew room and only pick up and drop off at the beginning and end of trips. There’s nothing stopping you and you’d never get in trouble. I never answer the phone without it going to voicemail, and I only call back if/when I feel like it.

Try dealing with the “decline in civility” when your boss (who you see every day all day) is a tool. Bad guy/girl to fly with? DNP, adios!

Deicing? You’re getting paid. ATC delays before departure? Paid. Diversion? Paid. Line to depart? Getting paid. Insufficient time to use the restroom or get food? Grow up and make the time to do it. I’m not going anywhere when I have to cut a leak or eat and neither should anyone with a spine. Monotony? Honestly tell me another job with as much variation as ours (hint- go read about all the things you just complained about, they’re all unscheduled and variable!). We literally travel the world seeing different places vs every other job where you go into the same dreary building day in and day out.

Honestly I get there are valid complaints but some of this is incredible

Fortunately most pilots still enjoy the gig. It'd be miserable to have to fly with guys like this on a regular basis.

You get phone calls about go arounds?

man there is a lot of poopooing of this job.

Also, “just go be a nurse anesthetist” is 6 years of schooling maybe shave a couple with transfer credits.

So, are all these cancellations a sign that pilots are avoiding DOTC and the effort is “working” to incentivize the company to improve the scheduling process? Lots of stories about pilots proffering a four day that turns into a two day, etc.

I know plenty of guys who either refuse to use DOTC because of the bait and switch or just can’t be bothered to deal with its awful interface.

Didn't Delta get like 3,000 pilots to take thre early outs? What did we get? About 1,000? Could have something to do with it.

Bachelors to BSN is 16 months, one year critical care (paid), three years of CRNA (which pays six figures while you're getting certified). Full-time CRNAs earn $200K +/- $50K (or more) year, depending on what part of the country you live in. Easy $250K in the midwest. Plenty of money to exercise your PPL privileges.

So yes, six years-while getting paid well into six figures at the three year point. Home every night. Go to the right clinic or office, no nights, no weekends, no holidays.

Poopooing? This is the reality of being an airline pilot, regional or major, in 2021. The days of one-leg domestic wide body trips to the five star hotel on the beach with a "Cadillac-paycheck" every month, as is often portrayed, are loooong gone. Airline pilot is a grueling, unstable career. The non-rev benefits are nice, but not even close to what they used to be. As the highest wage earner at the company, pilots are almost always the "bad guy." Just ask AA management who's responsible for all of those cancellations this past weekend.

^^^ sounds like you got into the industry for all the wrong reasons. Seems like now would be a good time for you to jump ship and do something else. Good luck!

The grueling life of an AA pilot https://res.cloudinary.com/hio22hxcn...5ho0y8zq7u4j6h

Will do! Before I go, however, what are the "right" reasons for getting into this career?

Just remember, this thread started with loganeich posting that he was going to leave a six-figure career to start at a regional in hopes of eventually getting hired by a major and earning $300K+/year. His daughter isn't even driving age yet and his wife thinks doing this is crazy. I agree with is wife.

Just trying to paint realistic expectations for the guy. Starting this career as a 42 year-old retired O5 with no hopes of promotion or another flying assignment is one thing. It's another thing thing to leave a six-figure career for a regional job in hopes of one day, barring no swan events or a recession, getting hired at a major and holding enough seniority to earn $300K, just because you like flying.

Loganeich, good luck!

It's also about what you love to do I never thought of flying as a job I was getting paid to do something I loved to do.

You know, I was going to jump on the bandwagon about your negativity, blah, blah, blah, and I do think it’s funny that you say it’s a grueling job - I guess everything is relative. But coming from the point of view you posted above, it does change perspective a bit. While I can’t think of a less stressful, less all-consuming, easier job for equal level of pay, I really don’t think leaving a 300k/yr career (unless you absolutely hated it and/or it went against your values as a person) to start in this industry would be high on my list.

you sound fun

Yeah maybe not, but then again he could be. Plenty of reality in that block of information most have experienced or are experiencing. Not all flying gigs are created equal so - May everyone find what’s tolerable, manageable but most of all enjoyable.

I left a 6-figure job as an engineer, got stuck in the right seat of regional during the pandemic, and this is still the best job I've ever had. I'm curious, besides CRNA, what other jobs you know of that pay people $200k/yr. You make it sound like this is the rule rather than the exception.

As an engineer, I was looking at topping out at maybe $150k, and that was as a commercial heavy construction manager (the actual engineer jobs paid less). My aero engineer and mech friends have even worse prospects because most of those jobs are govt or working for large corporations with set payscales. Hell, my cousin is a doctor, top of her class in med school, and she'll be lucky to make narrow-body CA pay one day, after residency. In the real world there are no 117 limitations and if you're not doing 60-hour work weeks, you'll permanently dead end in some soul-crushing, fluorescent light, cubicle farm, making $60k/yr, where you'll still have to deal with just as much BS from management (likely more, because their office is 20' away). And that's for a govt job. In the corporate world they'll just fire you and hire someone fresh out of college whose looking to prove themselves on Burger King salary. If you're complaining about the decreasing purchasing power of $300k, imagine how much more that sucks for most other white collar professionals who barely make 6 figures. I doubt their pay will triple and ours will stagnate.

Also, even getting 11 days off, I have more useful time at home than I ever did when I was an engineer, and that's not factoring in the overnights with 117 rest requirements in pretty decent hotels. On top of everything else, flying is like riding a motorcycle or hiking Zion; it never gets old. As far as I know, there's nothing else that will pay you this much to work this little, and is actually fun.

Unless I missed something, I read it that he was making 6 figures, as in $100k+. Captains at the regionals make low 90s with normal lines, more if they're check airmen or sim instructors. I think most people on here have never worked in a real office and really underestimate the hours of mind-numbing work and overestimate the pay. Personally, switching careers was the best thing I ever did.

My neighbor is a bond trader and makes 500k+ a year. Most finance and medical professionals make more than 200k. They also sleep in their own bed every night.

Once the novelty wears off, you’ll realize how much life leaves you behind while you hang out in the double tree with strangers you’ll never see ever again. Kids grow old, spouses leave, family members die.

All to aimlessly bounce around the country as a glorified truck driver.

I see what you're saying, but what I've seen from my personal experiences and all my friends in their respective industries, is that life is really hard for professionals. Even sleeping in your own bed every night doesn't mean much after working 10-12 hour days, plus commuting home in rush hour traffic, and then working some weekends. Coming home exhausted, reheating whatever I find, then going to bed, and doing it all over again with maybe a Sunday afternoon with the family wasn't quality time. When I'm on the road with the airline I have my nights to myself, with no other distractions, to do whatever I want, often in a city that's worth exploring. A few years from now, I'll have even more nights at home and overnights in generally a better pool of cities. In my professional experience, most people work themselves to death, and in the airlines, it's much less so.

Some good points made from both perspectives here. A few years prior to retiring from the military I was working on my MBA. Flying professionally after the Marines wasn't really on my radar. For many military aviators (not all), the mindset is "I gotta go to the airlines, that's what people like me do." I wasn't really like that, and knew there were plenty of cool things to do besides being an airline pilot. But as the time got closer and hiring really started to pick up, I did some soul searching and number crunching and realized (through many conversations with friends in the business world) that nowhere else was someone going to compensate me this well for this amount of work. Yes, there's a lot of responsibility in the sense of many lives depending on you not screwing it up, but it isn't the responsibility of being beholden to a corporation and management 24/7 as a salaried professional. We are highly skilled, trained professionals, and making an airline pilot isn't easy, but our day-to-day job is ridiculously easy. Widebody captains making north of $400k per year basically have the job obligations of a minimum wage worker (show up on time, do your job, don't steal anything, don't yell at the customers). Again, we have a lot more riding on our performance, but it isn't like we're sitting up there white-knuckled, sweating under the pressure.

I know everyone can point to random cushy corporate gigs or working for certain small business sectors where the pay is really good for not a lot of stress/work. But those are the exception. Fortune 500 management types with graduate degrees from really good universities and a decade plus of experience are fighting to crack $200k, and they are working their asses off to get it. Making that as a five year FO at a legacy/major is the norm. I know the regionals are a different story and that it's not guaranteed, but in the current environment, it isn't a complete stretch to think that a regional pilot today who keeps their nose clean has a pretty good shot at getting hired by a legacy eventually.

Now, commuting will obviously add to your stress level and time away from home. That last part, time away from home is the biggy. Regardless of how you slice it, you will be gone a lot. Some people mentioned that their "useful" time at home is actually better as a pilot, as opposed to working long days and only seeing your family a bit in the mornings and evenings. I get that. Still, at least for me, there is a difference between being gone several days at a stretch and seeing your kids a little each day. As much as you try to amp up the family time when you are home as a pilot, they still have school, activities, life that goes on, so I don't think it completely evens out.

But ultimately, if you get to a point where you live in base, and have a bit of seniority built up, it can be an extremely flexible, lucrative and stress free career. And even though the romantic nature of flying does wear off quite a bit, you still occasionally enjoy things about that as well.

This all day long...VERY well said. The guys that are the worst to fly with are the guys that think we're curing cancer or something. To me, if your family/life/personality can handle the away time, I can't think of a better gig.

Median = The median is the middle number in a sorted, ascending or descending, list of numbers and can be more descriptive of that data set than the average.

(No clue how accurate this table is. Note the (*); some of these figures are averages, not medians)

Personally, I'd say over the life of a pilot career, it feels about right. Maybe even on the low side. Good money for the amount of work involved.

My dad is a orthopedic surgeon (who makes more then 99.9% of pilots) and would love to swap with me every day of the week. His work day when I was growing up was usually 7am-7pm and on call at least 1 weekend every month and on call during the week randomly. Most people who make what we do aren’t working 40 hour work weeks. I have more time off and with the kids then a 9-5 worker. Yes some people don’t work that much but they are always tethered to a phone, or emails etc.

I remember those days when my dad and I used to swap love. I miss that.

hahaha fixed it

Anyone who complains about what a horrible job top tier airline flying is has never had a horrible job. It embarrassing to hear them whining like toddlers. Jeeesh.

Interesting story and breakdown.
https://youtu.be/4D9i8_OvTw0

Exactly…or the guy here who apparently thought he was going to be idolized by everyone he met as he sauntered his way, draped in a bomber jacket and Aviators, to the Crown Plaza from his “cushy” wide body job. I have never run into any pilot who has worked outside of aviation and made the switch who has regretted it or thought it was a grueling job.

I left a mid low 6 figure position to do this at 47. Was it crazy? Maybe/probably…. But my wife and family supported it and I have never looked back. I made great money but the job stress was high and hours long. I see my family more now. I seem to have hit a sweet spot and have been lucky though. In three years never sat reserve involuntarily, never been JM’d or extended and I’m now headed to a major. So while I seem to have been quite lucky, I do enjoy most trips and the flying we do. YMMV.

Am I passionate about flying? Not really; but if I have to work and am not going to win the lottery, then I can’t imagine doing anything else.

For a while, I would wake up and think I was a LOSER for being an airline pilot. I would spend too much time comparing myself to others. As they say, comparison is the thief of joy.

I took a long look at my finances and realized I'd likely be OK if I stayed as an airline pilot, versus going back to my old career. I've come to appreciate the career and still enjoy the flying the majority of time. I've also realized that the majority of people who earn what we do or more are often working their butts off to get it.

The reserve unit I drill with is mostly made up of airline pilots, but we have a few exceptions, including 2 of my best friends there. One left the Navy and got his MBA at a top-5 program and scored a consulting gig. His work schedule is mind blowing…arrives at work around 8, is lucky to get home to see his kids before they go to bed, and even when he does, he goes right back to his laptop and works late into the night. Day after day. Starts his work week on Sunday afternoon to prepare for the week and it doesn’t stop until Friday night. The money is good, 200k+ in his current role and future earnings astronomical (even 7 figs) if he sticks it out and makes partner, but at what cost? He told me last time I saw him he’s leaving and exploring other opportunities where he has more control over his work/life balance.

The other friend also got an MBA and works for a major auto manufacturer in the finance division. Has a similar work load, but makes less than I do and if he busts his tail, could make his way up to a director level position making 250k.

Knowing these 2 guys and their careers has given me a very strong appreciation for the work/life balance and pay I enjoy as an airline pilot. Grossing 200k as a 4 year NB FO will be easy this year, without even a fraction of the stress and hours they put themselves through.

...don't forget about the road warrior sales or tech people working non-union for some company, those who may fly more miles per year than many crew members, outside looking in that would be a horrible life IMO, but many thrive on that lifestyle (because maybe the home life is no fun compared to life on the road?)

Sat next to a guy who did this a few weeks ago on a dh. He asked how hard it would be to become a pilot at an airline. I got the impression that he was on the road about as much as me but was only making 60k. Crazy.