I’ll keep all that in mind. Compass guides are great but nothing like learning from the experience of others. Thanks for that

Iggy, if you’re not already in “The AArena” and “BelowTheLine” FB groups join them. Once you’re in search “IMAX” and probably the first post will be from a pilot with the initials CD. Read that. It’s a great breakdown and basic instruction manual for IMAX.

Naw it was funny, I dont wouldnt care if it was an insult, it was funny.

I just go back to the numbers. The number of pilots actually IMAXing is not that great. Doesnt even equal 10% of our pilot group. You can say 90% are lazy/stupid/whatever but the numbers dont lie. I have sat down and did the math on IMAXing. It isnt for me....at this stage of my life. I have a lot of stuff I dont want to miss. I like taking and planning out my vacations. I like saving my sick time. I am part of the 90% who do not IMAX.

Yes, notice how there hasn't been a elaborate public explanation of just how much we're talking about here. They only advertised a "Delta Style" profit sharing. Trust me - 2nd year FO's aren't going to be pulling in $27,000 checks like they were at Delta 4-5 years ago.

Found it!, thanks. Learning new airplanes is easier than this whole new AA ecosystem :D

I stated I didn’t hit IMAX on purpose. My kids are important…but also being able to pay for an over-budget house is also important.

this whole company operates on ancestor worship and tribal knowledge. The contract language is so gray, with so many items Not implemented, and so many misconceptions of what is actually said in it and how to use it.

It's always been this wAAy! Want a recent example?

https://liveandletsfly.com/american-...n-patronizing/

PAs like that have happened at all the airlines, most recently Delta and United as well. It’s most definitely not an AA-specific thing.

Loved it. It should be standard verbiage in the FOM. I may think about an upgrade when it makes it in there. :)

Careful. If you are looking for pay being IMAXd when you didn't mean to be can force you into multiple low months.

I could MAYBE stretch my brain a little and say we matched DAL. Not sure I could get there but it isn't unreasonable. To say we matched UAL is simply not true. Period. APA's email after UAL's AIP had 23 bullet points that they considered industry standard. We achieved 4 of them from our most recent talks. These are not industry leading items they are industry standard. We can't even get to industry standard other than pay rates or other pay related items.

The townhall last night was embarrassing. APA is a peewee town league team playing against the KC Chiefs at the negotiating table. Run over and trampled on.

Edit: There a multiple unchanged items from UAL, DAL, AA that AA will remain industry trailing. Things that UAL and DAL already had but didn't improved in their most recent bargaining. Hotels, etc.

Their argument for a lot of stuff was, "Be careful what you wish for.". Like the extra day off for reserves argument. Apparently Delta and United don't have an 85 hr max limit on reserves. They use FAR max. Our 85 hr max essentially means we can't be used more than 16 days per month, so we're already getting at least 14-15 days off. Of course those are days that can't be pre-bid, but they are days off in the end. There were numerous items that were worse than what we have at DAL and UAL and the company said, OK, you can have that, but then you get all of DAL/UAL's contract and not just the good parts. I am not defending APA and will be one of the first in line to vote for ALPA when and if that time comes.

This right here. Also, DAL’s pairing construction limits (worse than what we have proposed). AA said we could have 10 hour max scheduled FDP, but then that would force them to just create longer trips, something the majority here don’t want. It’s not clear that DAL and UAL won’t do exactly that when their 10 hour FDP provisions get fully implemented.

Well AIP 2.0 has been passed by the BOD. They didn't provide a break-out of the vote in the email though. Trying to find that info.

Upgrading will prevent you front ever having to endure a PA like that while sitting in the right seat. Aa73 is correct though, not an AA specific problem.

While on reserve, can you pick up open time/premium on your days off that goes over guarantee or you're limited to 85 hours total credit?

Sorry to invade your forum just watching from the sidelines and wanted to correct some info in here. At DAL reserve pilots are limited to Average Line Value (ALV) +15 hours. ALV changes month to month but must fall between 72-84 hours for narrow body aircraft which for us includes the 767-300 and 71-85 hours for wide body aircraft. Most summer months see ALVs around 80 and winter months in the low-mid 70s.

Can try to pick it up for OG( over guarantee) or PR and go above 85 hours. That is at scheduling's discretion. Can't just go and pick it up yourself on your off days.

Good info, thank you! So basically it’s reserves can fly 87-99 hours. So yes AA’s hard 85 is better than that. I do believe some of this is being lost in the uproar over TA 2.0.

Ok, so essentially reserves can be used between 85-95 to 100 hrs at DAL. At AAL, once you get over 79.45, they cannot use you anymore on reserve (you'll be over 85 since it's 5.15 per day). This is NOT a bad thing. When it comes to PM and OG, you can do that in your off days and yes, it is added to your min guarantee. You can also pick up OG and PM and work it into your reserve days, which a standard tactic for people that can do it. My preference is to pick up late departure 2-day on premium the night before I go on long-call. Every so often, it works out. I haven't had any issues crediting 100-120 hrs per month, usually only work 65-85 hrs and still able to stay in the 14-18 days off range. So, we have things here that are wins on reserve right now. Is it perfect? No, but it never will be because the majority of people don't care about reserve. I'm always asked, "You bid reserve on purpose?!". "Yep!". Why would I not? I can't get what I want in PBS as a line-holder, you can't drop, TTS sucks and I'd have to work way more to get the same amount of credit anyway.

O, I see. I thought the split duty addition was going to cut down on longer trips? What about our "industry leading(no, Alaska)" pairing construction?

With split duty and pairing construction aren't we protected from longer trips? If yes how would the 10 hour rig create longer trips?

At some point all these provisions need to fight against each other. The optimizer isn't some warlock that is going to create something out of nothing. It's a computer. We need to add rules that benefit the group and force the optimizer to figure it out. Do we have industry leading pairing construction rules or not? Is split duty actually a gain for this group or is mgmt promising something they will never deliver? That thing being less 4 and 5 day non-productive trips with 30 hour overnights.

Great question for the road shows. This is what was relayed last night on the PHL/BOS/LGA town hall. None of us were at the table, so we are just speculating at this point. My understanding is that yes, split duty was a give that APA gave anticipating some pilots would like them and bid for them in order to get AA to lock in trip construction limits. Who knows how that discussion played out when it came time to talk about 10 hour FDP.

My point is, DAL doesn’t have the trip construction limits that we have proposed in our TA. That’s a fact. So the company (and optimizer) has a lot more leeway to get productivity when the 10 hour day goes into effect.

APAs position (again, per the townhall) was that the company said at the negotiating table “you want DAL/UAL language? Fine, then you need all of it.” It’s probably safe to assume that meant eliminating the trip construction limits they had already locked in. APA wasn’t willing to go there on some things…this being one, and reserve days off /85 hour cap being another.

For better or for worse, the road shows will provide context to why things were negotiated the way they were. Until then, we are mostly just guessing.

The BOD No votes:
DCA CH
MIA CH
LAX CH
CLT VC (DDR)
Both PHX

This isn't exactly accurate. It is true that reserves are able to go to the ALV+15, but only if they grab you while you're below the reserve guarantee. The reserve guarantee is the ALV minus 2. Once you reach your reserve guarantee, you are "Full" have have no further obligation to the company. For example, if you have 65 hours for the month, and the reserve guarantee is 74 (76 ALV minus 2). You fly a 2 day trip worth 10:30, and that brings you to 75:30 for the month. You are now over your guarantee, so you are done for the month. OTOH, if you flew a one day trip for 5:15, you'd now be 70:15, you could still be assigned a trip all the way up to the ALV+15 depending on the days of availability you have left.

Many pilots attempt to fill up at the beginning of the month so they fill up before they run out of days of availability. This is something reserves can preference for trip coverage.

Well this isn't great for the narrative.

Are we lacking reassignment time provisions?

Right now it’s 0159 or 4 hours after sequence whatever is later
what is it in 2.0?

The optimizer has no limitations right now on trip construction. Since the TA language has come out data shows that almost every NB bid status is already meeting the new proposed construction limits. We need to negotiate some wins. As is without the 10 hour rig the company is going to be able to build the same amount of 4-5 day trips they always have AND also build split duty. O by the way, the split duty trips are going to eat into the min % of 1-2 day trips from the sequence limits.

The company(rightfully so, it is their job) is negotiating for a neutral outcome on anything that would "benefit" pilots and selling it as a win to us. On the other hand they are getting massive productivity gives on things that benefit them( ECS, split duty, RA into day off, catch up flying, etc).

Ooooooooh.... this definitely changes things. I was a no vote regardless. I've paid $1,800 in union dues already this year to APA for something ALPA gave us. I'm a little ticked and so should everyone else be. We'd still be at 6 or 12% pay raises right now with a bunch of people ready to hit the "yes" button.

Ok so the point remains the same…would you advocate to forgo the existing TA proposed pairing limitations in exchange for 10 hour FDP, and then theoretically go to DAL trip construction limits (minimal and yet TBD on how they will change even further with 10 hour FDP)?

All I’m saying, is APA negotiators considered that and decided no to that question for the good of AA pilots. I’m not defending them or advocating either way. But generally speaking, I think I would be in favor of contractual trip construction limits instead of the 10 hour FDP. Enough of my trips just don’t go over that and it’s just not enough of a pain point for me to say, “yeah, give me that limitation with the possibility of a lot more longer trips.”

There are some things that are easy to cut and paste, but the details are really, really important. For instance, "hey, let's have a self-directed MBCBP!", but MBCB plans cannot be self-directed. That's the whole point, is that it is a defined benefit plan, which gives you access to a different set of limits than DC plans. But DB plans cannot be directed by the recipient, they must be professionally managed. It took DALPA almost 3 years of work with professional finance houses to put together theirs. It's not something you pull off the shelf.

The 10 hour duty pay is not a rig. It pays no matter what, and is not offset by anything. For reserves, it's above guarantee.

Thats for RO. The new RO is 4 hours and the 0159 is gone.

The TA reassignment limitation is “no more than one calendar day.”

Yep and the management fees are going to be a bit higher than what you'd see with ETF's or Mutual/Index funds that are usually in the .015-.1% range.

No. That point does not remain the same. APA needs to negotiate wins not a cost/manning neutral solution for the company’s problems that then get labeled as a win for us.

UAL has sequence limits and the 10 hour duty.

so similar to the others.
I hope they release a contract comparison

To add to this, at DL going anywhere near ALV+15 is very rare. Getting more than a couple hours over a reserve guarantee not even remotely common. There are lots of ways to manage around that.

Also, DL cannot give you any trip which exceeds your remaining days on call - so in the above example, just because you are 3:45 short of being “Full”, doesn’t mean you can fly another 20ish hours if you don’t have 4 consecutive days of reserve remaining. If you only have 1 day remaining, you still can only fly that one day for a couple hours “over”. Since the maximum Reserve Guarantee is 80 hours, it’s actually really hard to exceed 85 via trip assignments, even if you want to.

See above, very, very few DL pilots are ever getting trips totaling over 85 hours. It’s possible, yes, but any comparison to a “hard limit” of 85 cannot assume the upper end of the limit, or that it happens much at all.

Are you serious, it’s a stretch to think AA matched DL, then UA? Really? We would easily come up with more than 23 bullet list items which matched. On balance, everyone knows APA came in very low on pay rates, and then matched DL’s AIP to the penny. Plus lots of other matched items like retro of 4/4/14, and other work rules as well. UA then matched DL and added 2% to the pay rates after our snap-up clause. AA then “matched” that…. Again. I don’t know why what’s so hard to “stretch” your brain around. Without DL and UA, AA’s contract would be billions lower.

FYI, DL is the same. No more than one calendar day past original footprint

Reroute off of your original rotation and reroute outside your trip window are two different things now as well. The pay treatment now stacks with each other.

Let's say you get rerouted on just your last day (with all the restrictions that go with that), you're making 150%. If they also take you outside your original release by 4 hours or more (non-ocean crossing), you're going to get an extra 100% for the entire last duty period. If they take you into the next day, that's two duty periods with 100% premium. So, essentially 100% for what you do, 50% for the non-original legs, and an extra 100% for the last duty period(s).

250% pay on the days you get in late and fly an extra day. Release after midnight for bonus points. If you happen to be on a green slip....well, you get the idea.

I think maybe you need to relax a little and read what I said again.

I’ll help: I said it would be a stretch to say that AA matched DAL and that we definitely did not match UAL.

DL's MBCBP management fees, through a CIT, are going to be about .03 - .04

man is there a lot of contortionism trying to cherry pick at the margins where APA possibly on DALPA an UAL. But it won't change the fact that APA didn't raise the bar, period.

That's what I read the first time. Are you trying to say that AA tried to match, but fell short? Are we talking past one another? Genuine question.

Because when you look at the APA website at https://negotiations.alliedpilots.org/Contract2023 > TA Summary. Here are just a few things that match DL, with help from UA (who matched DL and added 2%):
- Pay tables, to the penny
- 4/4/14 Retro
- 17% DC in 2024 and 18% in 2026,
- Profit Sharing formula
- Vacation paying 4:35
- Training pay of 3:05/day
- Training withdrawal option
- Reassignment pay at 150% day 1, 200% day 2
- 2:00 pay for release between 0000-0159
- sit pay exceeding 2:30 (DL actually 3 going to 2 on 1/1/24)
- LTD 50% of Final earnings (APA exceeded DL with "no offsets")
- MBCBP
- And more