A-fund Lump-Sum payout
12-11-2011, 06:08 PM
#22
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by RI830
Anyone who retired Nov 1st and later is unfortunately considered a creditor. Even Aprey at this time is considered a creditor.
It really chaps my arse to hear of this story about the retirement flight.
and the 1000's of others that are effected by this.
It really chaps my arse to hear of this story about the retirement flight.
My heart goes out to him
Originally Posted by RI830
Anyone who retired Nov 1st and later is unfortunately considered a creditor. Even Aprey at this time is considered a creditor.
It really chaps my arse to hear of this story about the retirement flight.
and the 1000's of others that are effected by this.
It really chaps my arse to hear of this story about the retirement flight.
My heart goes out to him
This financial engineering (concessionary contracts) enabled them the time to skim HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS in bonuses for the top guys before the pyramid collapsed.
I believe all of Arpey's comments were self serving. One, he received almost 4.8 mil at the time of the BK filing plus all of the bonus dollars he skimmed off the top with the other criminals since 2003.
The only way I think he would ever get any respect is to return the money he skimmed to the people that earned him the money in the first place.
If he doesn't, I am sure the sign over door to where he is going in the next life will read......... Welcome to Hell, Where Its only business'...
12-11-2011, 06:25 PM
#23
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by EWRflyr
To tag onto that post, I found this article below. No matter what you think of Arpey, from what this writer could tell there was a moral feeling with Arpey regarding bankruptcy and obligations to employees.
Arpey left AMR because he viewed it as immoral for the company to file and not live up to the promised obligations to both the employees and stakeholders. In addition, he declined his severance package when he left AMR.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/op...ml?_r=3&src=tp
Arpey left AMR because he viewed it as immoral for the company to file and not live up to the promised obligations to both the employees and stakeholders. In addition, he declined his severance package when he left AMR.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/01/op...ml?_r=3&src=tp
Do you really believe that article ?
Did you know that Arpey and his chosen few gave themselves HUNDREDS of Millions of dollars over the past few years, bleeding and skimming from the company.
If you really believe this crap, I have some high and dry land for sale just 30 miles west of Miami.
JR
12-13-2011, 08:51 AM
#24
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by slowplay
I believe the story is incomplete.
The 24 year employee who retired/unretired lost his ability to take his A plan in a lump sum. As long as his full benefit was "qualified", he will get every penny owed to him in the form of an annuity UNLESS AMR is successful in terminating the pension plan. I view that as unlikely, as the last report I saw showed it about 80% funded. The analysts I follow are suggesting it's more likely that AMR will be able to freeze their pension plans (no more accruals, no new participants), and pension law changed in 2006 to make termination more difficult.
WRONG......., Incorrect.. Do you understand the concept of
Net Present Value..?
The 24 year employee who retired/unretired lost his ability to take his A plan in a lump sum. As long as his full benefit was "qualified", he will get every penny owed to him in the form of an annuity UNLESS AMR is successful in terminating the pension plan. I view that as unlikely, as the last report I saw showed it about 80% funded. The analysts I follow are suggesting it's more likely that AMR will be able to freeze their pension plans (no more accruals, no new participants), and pension law changed in 2006 to make termination more difficult.
So far it appears AMR November and later retirees have lost a form of payment, not any earned benefit.
Net Present Value..?
Anybody have different info?
The net present value of the long term income stream nets a 30% loss.
JR
Last edited by AANoUntilRetro; 12-13-2011 at 09:37 AM.
12-14-2011, 04:59 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by AANoUntilRetro
YES. I will not live long enough to recover what my 'annuity' will payout on a monthly basis.
The net present value of the long term income stream nets a 30% loss.
JR
The net present value of the long term income stream nets a 30% loss.
JR
12-14-2011, 06:00 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 581
Originally Posted by AANoUntilRetro
YES. I will not live long enough to recover what my 'annuity' will payout on a monthly basis.
The net present value of the long term income stream nets a 30% loss.JR
The net present value of the long term income stream nets a 30% loss.JR
The concept of Present Value is the amount of money, with an assumed rate of return, that will yield an income stream for a set period of time. So let's say the benefit was $5,000.00 per month, the assumed rate of return was 5%, and the life of the income stream was 25 years. That amount of money would be roughly $850K.
My understanding is AA pilots had the option of a lump sum or a monthly check. If as Slowplay says, all of that retirement is qualified then you are owed the benefit by the PBGC (assuming AMR terminates that pension plan) instead of AMR. The PBGC does not make lump sum payouts so you would receive a monthly check. The benefit hasn't changed.
Granted most of us would prefer a check for the lump sum, but I'm virtually certain many a pilot who has received a lump sum has managed to lose a fair amount, as they weren't the investment geniuses they thought they were.
I suppose you could (successfully) argue that if one died three months after retiring one's heirs would inherit the lump sum, but would get nothing (or perhaps a reduced benefit) from the PBGC.
But the converse is also true. Suppose the lump sum was based on a 25 year annuity but you lived for 35 years. You'd receive more via the monthly check than the lump sum.
What am I missing?
12-14-2011, 06:43 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Left seat on a kite
Posts: 1,884
My sympathies went out to the Capt in the story of the retirement flight, water canon salute and all the shindig and then found out that he wasn't leaving. I have ABSOLUTELY NO sympathy or feelings for Arpey. I worked at Eagle for 6 yrs and fully know the ploys and trickeration that they employ.
Originally Posted by AANoUntilRetro
Your heart goes out to ARPEY ? WHAT, Come again......
Thanks for the sentiment, HOWEVER, Arpey was at the helm when the company squeezed everyone for billions in saving per year from all employees. I believe we (all AA employees) gave up almost 4 billion a year in concessions. This was done with the promise that once we returned to profitability we would be made whole. Of course the profits were reduced to ZERO after the big guys paid themselves the big bucks.
This financial engineering (concessionary contracts) enabled them the time to skim HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS in bonuses for the top guys before the pyramid collapsed.
I believe all of Arpey's comments were self serving. One, he received almost 4.8 mil at the time of the BK filing plus all of the bonus dollars he skimmed off the top with the other criminals since 2003.
The only way I think he would ever get any respect is to return the money he skimmed to the people that earned him the money in the first place.
If he doesn't, I am sure the sign over door to where he is going in the next life will read......... Welcome to Hell, Where Its only business'...
Thanks for the sentiment, HOWEVER, Arpey was at the helm when the company squeezed everyone for billions in saving per year from all employees. I believe we (all AA employees) gave up almost 4 billion a year in concessions. This was done with the promise that once we returned to profitability we would be made whole. Of course the profits were reduced to ZERO after the big guys paid themselves the big bucks.
This financial engineering (concessionary contracts) enabled them the time to skim HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS in bonuses for the top guys before the pyramid collapsed.
I believe all of Arpey's comments were self serving. One, he received almost 4.8 mil at the time of the BK filing plus all of the bonus dollars he skimmed off the top with the other criminals since 2003.
The only way I think he would ever get any respect is to return the money he skimmed to the people that earned him the money in the first place.
If he doesn't, I am sure the sign over door to where he is going in the next life will read......... Welcome to Hell, Where Its only business'...
12-14-2011, 05:54 PM
#29
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 66
[QUOTE=Wasatch Phantom;1101499]As PG said, "How do you figure"?
The concept of Present Value is the amount of money, with an assumed rate of return, that will yield an income stream for a set period of time. So let's say the benefit was $5,000.00 per month, the assumed rate of return was 5%, and the life of the income stream was 25 years. That amount of money would be roughly $850K.
My understanding is AA pilots had the option of a lump sum or a monthly check. If as Slowplay says, all of that retirement is qualified then you are owed the benefit by the PBGC (assuming AMR terminates that pension plan) instead of AMR. The PBGC does not make lump sum payouts so you would receive a monthly check. The benefit hasn't changed.
Granted most of us would prefer a check for the lump sum, but I'm virtually certain many a pilot who has received a lump sum has managed to lose a fair amount, as they weren't the investment geniuses they thought they were.
I suppose you could (successfully) argue that if one died three months after retiring one's heirs would inherit the lump sum, but would get nothing (or perhaps a reduced benefit) from the PBGC.
But the converse is also true. Suppose the lump sum was based on a 25 year annuity but you lived for 35 years. You'd receive more via the monthly check than the lump sum.
What am I missing?[/e
max monthly PBGC pay, based on current mortality tables and age 65 retirement is somewhere around 4900 per month. This decreases if you are younger than 65. PBGC does NOT usually make you whole. There may be exceptions.
The concept of Present Value is the amount of money, with an assumed rate of return, that will yield an income stream for a set period of time. So let's say the benefit was $5,000.00 per month, the assumed rate of return was 5%, and the life of the income stream was 25 years. That amount of money would be roughly $850K.
My understanding is AA pilots had the option of a lump sum or a monthly check. If as Slowplay says, all of that retirement is qualified then you are owed the benefit by the PBGC (assuming AMR terminates that pension plan) instead of AMR. The PBGC does not make lump sum payouts so you would receive a monthly check. The benefit hasn't changed.
Granted most of us would prefer a check for the lump sum, but I'm virtually certain many a pilot who has received a lump sum has managed to lose a fair amount, as they weren't the investment geniuses they thought they were.
I suppose you could (successfully) argue that if one died three months after retiring one's heirs would inherit the lump sum, but would get nothing (or perhaps a reduced benefit) from the PBGC.
But the converse is also true. Suppose the lump sum was based on a 25 year annuity but you lived for 35 years. You'd receive more via the monthly check than the lump sum.
What am I missing?[/e
max monthly PBGC pay, based on current mortality tables and age 65 retirement is somewhere around 4900 per month. This decreases if you are younger than 65. PBGC does NOT usually make you whole. There may be exceptions.
12-14-2011, 05:59 PM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by Bluesky1
max monthly PBGC pay, based on current mortality tables and age 65 retirement is somewhere around 4900 per month. This decreases if you are younger than 65. PBGC does NOT usually make you whole. There may be exceptions.
For example, in the Delta bankruptcy, our senior guys are making roughly $8,000/mo from the PBGC, in spite of the fact that the PBGC max for age 65 is about $4,500/mo for a plan that terminated in 2006.
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