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Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   American (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/american/)
-   -   What now? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/american/69577-what-now.html)

Mesabah 08-18-2012 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1247722)
After the rejected TA and the judge's ruling, the American pilots should probably reconsider where they are. If any American pilot has not read the ruling they should read it today. From what I read the judge said:

  • American went bankrupt because their network was too small and they did not have enough feed. This has caused a serious revenue problem as the high value customers are abandoning them. Part of the reorganization will be to increase code sharing and RJ flying to fix that (did you read that Mesabah? Your crew room lawyering is once again shown to be wrong)
  • He does not care if the APA thinks that merging with US Airways is the best course of action, no merger has been agreed to
  • The company's witnesses were more credible than the APA's
  • Under Chapter 11, necessary changes do not mean the minimum to survive, it means enough changes to create a successful company
  • The APA's theory of "convergence", or that other labor groups would eventually catch up to their costs is not a credible plan of reorganization
  • Management does not have to lower their cost reduction targets to show good faith bargaining
The creditor's committee just spoke up also. Remember the current owners of the company, the stock holders are getting wiped out. The creditors are going to be the new owners. That is why they have a say about what goes on. This is what they said:


  • We supported labor getting a claim (ownership stake) in the new AMR, but only if they added value through agreeing to a contract
  • If the APA does not add any value with a rejection, they will get no ownership
  • Each day that goes along, value is slipping out of the APA's hands
These are not my words, those are the words of the people who hold your fate in their hands.


The judge's ruling has basically shattered all of the forum ideas about how the APA would prevail. The last and most brain dead forum idea is that American needs them to sign a contract so badly, they will come crawling back to negotiate. This is the most ridiculous statement to date. They don't need you to have a deal, they are getting their own deal sewn up by the judge in about two weeks.


So you have two options:


  1. Agree to a crappy contract that contains a substantial claim in the reorganized American. Just to reiterate, the 13% claim that the Delta pilots got from their bankruptcy netted out to $1,300,000,000. That's a lot of zeroes there.
  2. Accept and even worse contract rejection and get no claim
Financially, there is no choice, Option 1 is the only way to go. Emotionally, if the American pilots feel the need to throw away money in order to make some statement to somebody somewhere, then you can make that choice.
Yeah, we'll see about that. Let's see what a judge that's an expert at labor law has to say.

alfaromeo 08-18-2012 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Doug Masters (Post 1247908)
Is that you Moak?
Hey are you dense? That is what the judge said. Don't blame me for what the judge said. Really, some of you guys are so childish.

Doug Masters 08-18-2012 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1247939)
Hey are you dense? That is what the judge said. Don't blame me for what the judge said. Really, some of you guys are so childish.
Was supposed to be TIC but forgot the smiley thingy

DeadHead 08-18-2012 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1247722)
After the rejected TA and the judge's ruling, the American pilots should probably reconsider where they are. If any American pilot has not read the ruling they should read it today. From what I read the judge said:

  • American went bankrupt because their network was too small and they did not have enough feed. This has caused a serious revenue problem as the high value customers are abandoning them. Part of the reorganization will be to increase code sharing and RJ flying to fix that (did you read that Mesabah? Your crew room lawyering is once again shown to be wrong)
  • He does not care if the APA thinks that merging with US Airways is the best course of action, no merger has been agreed to
  • The company's witnesses were more credible than the APA's
  • Under Chapter 11, necessary changes do not mean the minimum to survive, it means enough changes to create a successful company
  • The APA's theory of "convergence", or that other labor groups would eventually catch up to their costs is not a credible plan of reorganization
  • Management does not have to lower their cost reduction targets to show good faith bargaining
The creditor's committee just spoke up also. Remember the current owners of the company, the stock holders are getting wiped out. The creditors are going to be the new owners. That is why they have a say about what goes on. This is what they said:


  • We supported labor getting a claim (ownership stake) in the new AMR, but only if they added value through agreeing to a contract
  • If the APA does not add any value with a rejection, they will get no ownership
  • Each day that goes along, value is slipping out of the APA's hands
These are not my words, those are the words of the people who hold your fate in their hands.


The judge's ruling has basically shattered all of the forum ideas about how the APA would prevail. The last and most brain dead forum idea is that American needs them to sign a contract so badly, they will come crawling back to negotiate. This is the most ridiculous statement to date. They don't need you to have a deal, they are getting their own deal sewn up by the judge in about two weeks.


So you have two options:


  1. Agree to a crappy contract that contains a substantial claim in the reorganized American. Just to reiterate, the 13% claim that the Delta pilots got from their bankruptcy netted out to $1,300,000,000. That's a lot of zeroes there.
  2. Accept and even worse contract rejection and get no claim
Financially, there is no choice, Option 1 is the only way to go. Emotionally, if the American pilots feel the need to throw away money in order to make some statement to somebody somewhere, then you can make that choice.
So, Not only do you know everything there is to know about DAL pilots, but also AMR pilots now too?

Your arrogance continues to astound...

What 08-18-2012 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1247891)
This is from the judge's ruling (they are not contiguous paragraphs, just quotes):

The March 21 Proposal would allow American’s regional partners to fly aircraft with a maximum of 88 seats and a MTOW of 114,500 pounds. (AA Ex. 918). The maximum number of regional jets of 51 to 88 seats would be capped at the greater of 255 or 50% of the total number of mainline aircraft in use at the time. (AA Ex. 918; American’s APA Motion at 23 n.18). The maximum number of regional jets of 50 seats or less would remain at 110% of the narrow body aircraft flown at the mainline at the time. (AA Ex. 918). Additionally, the distinction between owned and non-owned commuter carriers would be eliminated—all would be operated as if owned. (AA Ex. 918). Based on current fleet size, the APA calculates that the March 21 Proposal would permit the Company to use 536 regional jets of up to 50 seats and 304 regional jets of 51 to 88 seats. (Eaton Decl. ¶ 25). The APA’s primary objection relates to the use of the larger regional jets.

The Court finds, therefore, that American has shown that the request in the March 21 Proposal is reasonable and necessary when compared to its network competitors.

This is a comparison between the TA the American pilots voted down and what there new working conditions will be if they let the judge rule:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39382899/Comparison.JPG

So you can yell at me all you want. I am just the weatherman, you can scream at me for telling you that it is raining, or you can go find an umbrella. If this fight is about RJ's the choice is pretty stark. The TA had terms much more favorable to the American pilots than the judges ruling will be. Read his decision, let me know how you think this will go.

Little children can hurl insults on this forum all day. Let me know how that works for you in the real world.
We know that the judge is likely to grant he company's request to abrogate the contracts. But do you think that AMR will get another contract with APA if they have 200 E-190 being flown by regionals while the other legacies are limited to CRJ 900 and E-175. How many guys do you think will stick around working down to FAR and a hit on pay(loss of work rules). APA is likely to be better off from the events in the last few weeks. I believe the judge has set a hearing for Sep 4, from there we are likely to see instructions from the judge. This is going to cost AMR another month or so at least. The longer this happens the shorter AA runs on pilots and the closer we get to those 777-300 getting on property and creating a training bubble as senior guys get fed up and walk away. 400 pilots in the fall created a mess last year, AMR has it fresh on their minds. Listen to what Eagle fly says, if AMR makes it bad enough that guys just leave AMR is stuck! they won't be able to get people on property fast enough.

forgot to bid 08-18-2012 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1247722)
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Co...380;7;70;0.jpg
After the rejected TA and the judge's ruling, the American pilots should probably reconsider where they are. If any American pilot has not read the ruling they should read it today. From what I read the judge said:

  • American went bankrupt because their network was too small and they did not have enough feed. This has caused a serious revenue problem as the high value customers are abandoning them. Part of the reorganization will be to increase code sharing and RJ flying to fix that (did you read that Mesabah? Your crew room lawyering is once again shown to be wrong)
  • He does not care if the APA thinks that merging with US Airways is the best course of action, no merger has been agreed to
  • The company's witnesses were more credible than the APA's
  • Under Chapter 11, necessary changes do not mean the minimum to survive, it means enough changes to create a successful company
  • The APA's theory of "convergence", or that other labor groups would eventually catch up to their costs is not a credible plan of reorganization
  • Management does not have to lower their cost reduction targets to show good faith bargaining
The creditor's committee just spoke up also. Remember the current owners of the company, the stock holders are getting wiped out. The creditors are going to be the new owners. That is why they have a say about what goes on. This is what they said:


  • We supported labor getting a claim (ownership stake) in the new AMR, but only if they added value through agreeing to a contract
  • If the APA does not add any value with a rejection, they will get no ownership
  • Each day that goes along, value is slipping out of the APA's hands
These are not my words, those are the words of the people who hold your fate in their hands.


The judge's ruling has basically shattered all of the forum ideas about how the APA would prevail. The last and most brain dead forum idea is that American needs them to sign a contract so badly, they will come crawling back to negotiate. This is the most ridiculous statement to date. They don't need you to have a deal, they are getting their own deal sewn up by the judge in about two weeks.



So you have two options:

http://blog.zap2it.com/pop2it/Alec-B...NL-cropped.jpg
  1. Agree to a crappy contract that contains a substantial claim in the reorganized American. Just to reiterate, the 13% claim that the Delta pilots got from their bankruptcy netted out to $1,300,000,000. That's a lot of zeroes there.
  2. Accept and even worse contract rejection and get no claim
Financially, there is no choice, Option 1 is the only way to go. Emotionally, if the American pilots feel the need to throw away money in order to make some statement to somebody somewhere, then you can make that choice.
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1247762)
There you have it, folks.
http://xfinity.comcast.net/blogs/tv/...win-meyers.jpg
alfa has told you exactly what's going on and what your choices are. It's official now.
A story is always better with pictures.

forgot to bid 08-18-2012 06:09 PM
redacted... picture issue.

tsquare 08-18-2012 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by What (Post 1248046)
We know that the judge is likely to grant he company's request to abrogate the contracts. But do you think that AMR will get another contract with APA if they have 200 E-190 being flown by regionals while the other legacies are limited to CRJ 900 and E-175. How many guys do you think will stick around working down to FAR and a hit on pay(loss of work rules). APA is likely to be better off from the events in the last few weeks. I believe the judge has set a hearing for Sep 4, from there we are likely to see instructions from the judge. This is going to cost AMR another month or so at least. The longer this happens the shorter AA runs on pilots and the closer we get to those 777-300 getting on property and creating a training bubble as senior guys get fed up and walk away. 400 pilots in the fall created a mess last year, AMR has it fresh on their minds. Listen to what Eagle fly says, if AMR makes it bad enough that guys just leave AMR is stuck! they won't be able to get people on property fast enough.
You raise an interesting premise. This is not flamebait, but rather a legitimate question. What makes you think the senior guys will be the ones to walk away? It is they that have the most to lose in that scenario. In the ruling, the judge stated that the average retirement is over $1 million. Average. That means some are worth more.. some less. It isn't hard to figure which ones are worth more. And as was also pointed out, the company offered.. to freeze, rather than terminate those pensions. So why would those senior guys walk away from that? Now if those pensions get terminated, you might have a point, but if there is still money in the bank.. why would they leave first of all, and second, where would they go?

Another question: Why is American running short on pilots? Is it due to temporary events like sick outs, or are guys quitting?


And if eagle's premise is valid.. not saying it is or isn't, and enough guys leave, my bet is that management would sell the remaining pieces to the highest bidder. His premise is that the pilots would force a fire sale, and ultimately a Chapter 7. All those 737 slots and the 777-300s you speak of are worth a lot of coin in that case, and the South America book is worth a small fortune. I get the burn it down feeling that is there, but all the forum bluster aside, what will be gained by going nuclear? Guys might feel better for a little while, but how long will that feeling last when you are looking to M R Rats for a job?

Again, the above is not intended in any way as flamebait. I am just trying to understand the thought processes that are going on.

tim123 08-18-2012 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1248050)
A story is always better with pictures.
FTB always nails it.Are you the FO running in ATL?You would make the council updates worth looking at.

Schwanker 08-19-2012 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1247939)
Hey are you dense? That is what the judge said. Don't blame me for what the judge said. Really, some of you guys are so childish.
Alfa,
How long is Horton going to be able to hide under the judge's skirt? Why get lock in a POS contract for years and years? Horton needs the pilots if he wants a successful restructuring. With DAL and UAL (soon to be public) coming to terms, why should APA settle for a LONG term contract significantly substandard to these. Do you think they should have authorized unlimited code-share and regional feed? APA didn't think so and I applaud them for this. I wouldn't want to vote my flying away either.


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