Why can't American Pay their pilots industry standard? There are guys out there flying 737 making more than widebody captains at the Legacy carriers! And they are a Low Cost Carrier. Stop letting management implant stuff in your head. If they shifted and extra 25 cents per seat per hr on a -80 to the pilots that would be $35 extra. 20 more for the Captain and 15 for the FO. IF the airlines collectively wanted to pay their pilots more they could raise ticket prices by a minuscule amount and be able to do so, but they want to drive cost down...

Yeah, and that's $35 less that the blood suckers would get. Keep dreaming.

]Equity stake distribution to members is still TBD by APA BOD. It's complicated - Lots of tax and legal implications to consider.[/QUOTE]

Understandably so, but are they going to cut up the pie in equal parts, or?????? Hopefully we don't see some fleecing as the upper management of AMR has been known to do. If we are all one governed body, then to me the decision would be easy, 13.5% divided by all those on the American Airlines pilot seniority list. For those on furlough, put it in escrow, give it to guys once they return.

Why ?

Because they don't have to. The majority of AA pilots are willing to work for less and on Dec. 7, that will almost certainly be confirmed. Love to be wrong, but convinced I'm correct. :(

You are correct, AA pilots will follow the lead of all the other airline pilot groups as they accept peanuts just to keep "their" (?) airline afloat. When will you fools wake up and realize that the system is way beyond rigged against you, especially as long as you continue to act like it is 1975? Here is a news flash: THE ASSOCIATIONS HAVE FAILED YOU! THE ASSOCIATIONS ARE OBSOLETE! Now what are you going to do about it? Read your, pilot, history and learn or you will continue to repeat your mistakes.
Management has been successful in destroying the profession because they understand how screwed up the current system of airline pilot labor representation actually is. Until pilots come together as one group you will continue to flounder. The self-proclaimed leaders of all the "associations" are quick to tell you why a single organization to represent ALL commercial pilots won't work but they cannot point to any post deregulation successes, especially since pilots have lost over 50 percent of their purchasing power since 1978, not to mention the loss of respect and dignity the profession once enjoyed.
Now please do not think that what is needed involves a national seniority list. Unfortunately when anyone mentions one voice for pilots it is immediately assumed that an NSL is the objective, far from it. In fact if you want to see real turmoil just try to arrange the current pilots into one list, much less apply it, and watch the fur fly. What is required for the advancement of the profession is a single contract with a single pay scale, work rules, etc. And this is only the beginning. There is much more to this solution and it has many hurdles to concur, but unless a movement is begun to change the system, well a former ALPA president recognized this fact over 22 years ago: “I believe unequivocally that anything less than a strong centralized national union in today’s environment is suicide for the profession and eventually for every pilot group.” Captain Hank Duffy, outgoing ALPA president, October, 1990.
Because they have little knowledge of or respect for their history, the AA pilots will accept their contract as will the chumps at CAL/UAL. Sad, very sad.

A single organization representing all pilots is illegal under the RLA act. That is why ALPA is a association. Each airline under ALPA functions as a independent union. It is also illegal under the RLA to try and work under one set of wage and work rules. Plumbers can do it but pilots can not. All pilots should read and understand the RLA. A attempt was made a few years ago to remove Fedex from the RLA because they don't belong there. This spooked Fred Smith so bad that he threatened to cancel every single Boeing order and buy all Airbus. He values the RLA so highly that he actually has a clause written into every Boeing purchase that the contract is void if the RLA is changed or Fedex removed from its protection. Boeing and the Senators from the states Boeing does business quickly killed the bill to pull Fedex from the RLA.

If this is correct, and for the sake of argument we will assume it is so, why haven't the associations acted to get out of the RLA or at least have it amended? People act like this law, written for the railroads in the late 1920's, is written in stone, or sent down from the Lord above, well it is not. All laws are amendable or can be abolished. Remember Prohibition? Unfortunately the RLA gives the associations’ credence and therefore justifies their current organization and therefore power in the profession. It has been to long since the associations put the welfare of the profession ahead of their own struggle for power and their very existence. Even a few simple amendments would help to level the playing field but when asked if ALPA was working to amend or abolish the RLA an ALPA official said” It isn’t even on our radar.”
The idea of an equal pay system, therefore equal labor costs across the industry, has been well received by airline managers at some of the leading legacy carriers. Just think of the savings when you no longer have to try to beat your competitor in labor costs plus if done as projected the contract could almost be perpetual, benefiting management and labor. It is time to think out of the box folks. Is the next generation so absorbed in Ipads and Facebook that they will let this once proud and profitable profession sink even further into the abyss?

Operation orange has been attacking the RLA for a long time now, and yet no one takes them seriously, which I find a bit sad. There's a lot of good thought there.

Night Hawk 6, you say what everyone knows already. The problem is, nothing can be done until the RLA is history. Without the ability to withhold services, we have no power. Zero. Zip.

We can picket, cry, sulk, but so long as federal judges can sanction our unions for everything they have, so long as Presidential powers can force us to go back to work, nothing is going to change. Management holds all the cards, and it's a royal flush.

Until the RLA is history: This is why our only choice at AA, unless we want to fold and vote yes, is to disband the APA as a legal entity and simply distribute all the assets to the members.

No union = 7,500 independent contractors. Nobody to throw in jail. Nobody to fine 20 million dollars.

Each pilot goes on strike individually. The water will be bloody. There will be firings right and left, draconian pronunciations, threats. But a federal judge cannot sanction 7,500 pilots each by name, individually.

There'll be scabs... but not enough to keep AA afloat.

If we vote NO on Dec 7, and AA's performance magically matches what happened in October, the company has solid evidence of an illegal job action, and we are back to square one, with the judge sanctioning the APA for millions and ordering us to operate "status quo."

If AMR uses DAL and UAL as "industry standard" scope, why not pay the pilots the same way? "Industry standard" right?:rolleyes:

So how long has it been since the last contract went up? or how long has APA been negotiating with AA management?

I voted NO I did my part.

I am not arguing with you- this is not a rhetorical question- what part of the RLA makes a national seniority list illegal?

Did my part and voted YES

Just curious Kcpunk, and I'm not throwing stones, doesn't,t the scope clause make you wonder if there will be any contraction of AA flying? I mean yes they are willing to furlough protect current active pilots, but as time goes on along with attrition, I don,t see a guys moving up to left seat positions, just outsourcing of jobs, AA pilot jobs that is. As for this recent announcement of recalls, I believe it will be short lived. You have to ask the question, why would they not offer furlough protection for all on the seniority list once they have been recalled? It leads me to believe that they don't see expansion. Hopefully I am wrong. I know there are no guarantees, and yes you have to roll the dice,(obviously my avatar shows I have), but I feel this risk reward has no upside, except of course a , well...... Paycheck. We all have our reasons, glad we can agree to disagree.

I need the job!

I listened to both telecoms, read the TA, read the Q&A, I think rejecting the TA will put us into an unknown, potentially damaging position with little chance of merger. I dont think you will see a better contract than what is on the table right now or the equity payout if the TA is rejected( not JMO)

Don't bite the hand that is offering to feed you!

People can post anything and make statements that they only assume to be correct. The RLA was written at a time when major areas of our country were served by just one railroad company. To prevent the economic chaos that would happen if that company was shut down by a strike isolating an entire region of the nation, the RLA was written and passed into law in 1926. The last time the RLA was amended was in 1939 and it incorporated the airlines at the insistance of ALPA's president.
Not to stray to far from the topic of this thread, it would behoove all airline pilots to read and understand this act before they vote especially when threats are being issued based on what can or cannot be done under the guise of this act. The AA pilots voted no the last time with many willing to take the fight to the very end, something that has never been done before in our industry, and press to test the effects of this antiquated set of regulations. Voting no again would assure a show down in many ways but not the least of which is how much the RLA could be exposed for its failure to achhieve its initial intent or how a group without a contract could react or even be covered by the tenants of the regulation.
Basically it is a shame that the leaders of this profession are content to allow airline management to run all over us with the blessing of the federal government via the 1926 RLA.

Interesting thoughts. First of all, I agree with you about the RLA. But then... if you have 7500 individual contractors, how could you call someone going to work a scab? For example, a pilot that bid a schedule and flew said schedule would nolt be taking anyone's flying... There would be no collective bargaining agent, therefore no one to call for a strike. I would think the concept of a "scab" would be rendered null and void at that point because mob rule doesn't translate well to a legitimate job action. FWIW....

Not this national seniority list crap again....

Nope, no NSL discussion here. Unfortunately folks default to the NSL when the subject of consolidation of pilot labor representation is discussed. An NSL might be a byproduct of consolidation but it would only be possible after an entire generation of pilots has progressed through their careers. Voting by the AA pilots in without knowing all the possibilities of a NO vote in light of the RLA is what every pilot should be concerned about. It is the RLA, as administered by the NMB, that has permitted airline management to destroy the profession and the biggest failure of all is the lack of leadership by the associations in fighting to abolish or amend this antiquated regulation. The sad fact is that pilots are ignorant of their history and do not have the knowledge much less the guts to stand up and change the system.

I don't think any part would make a national SLI illegal. You could not however set up union standards to be admitted to that list. I don't think you will ever see a national SNL for many reasons. The biggest being what airline CEO is going to hire pilots off the list to place ahead of his employees and pay them higher wages. Even with a national SLI the airlines will higher pilots off the street and not on the list who will go on the bottom. Cheaper labor and you keep your pilots far happier with new hires coming into the bottom of the list instead of the top.

Most airline managements would simply not join into any national seniority list. Keep in mind that seniority lists are controlled by the airlines not the pilots union. Union control over a seniority list only exists to the extent that they negotiate in a contract. As a example DALPA the pilots union at Delta could never have placed Comair or ASA pilots on the Delta seniority list even if they felt it was a brilliant move. Delta management controls the seniority list. They would have had to agree with DALPA that they wanted the list merged. They didn't and would never have merged the lists.

The RLA is not going anywhere. As I pointed out in another post i made here there was a recent union attempt to move Fedex out from under the RLA. It was crushed. Airline managements have fought any attempts at changing or amending it tooth and nail. There have been attempts. There are always feelers out trying to gauge support in Congress. Getting both houses to amend the law and the president to sign it so airline pilots can enjoy higher wages is not easy. It may never happen. Congress wants lower fares and in general is anti union, even the democrats. The talk pro union for votes but they don't walk the walk.
I asked this very question of one of the ALPA people who works directly with congress. He said they could not even get anyone to even introduce a bill to amend the act let alone get it out of committee and to the floor for a vote. No politician wants to be know as the guy who gave those damn unions all that power leading to a national strike.

The current system of associations is not a union. From my experience and the discussions here there is also a lack of understanding how a real union would work. Relying on the associations and the government has worked so well that pilots can now work 20 percent more hours to and have less than 50 percent of the purchasing power than their fathers did prior to deregulation. If our Founding Fathers had had the same backbone as today's pilots, we would be saluting the Union Jack. In the next month you will see two pilot groups surrender to management tyranny and move the profession another step backwards. Please prove me wrong AA and CAL/UAL pilots.

You make good points. But here's the good part about union dissolution... just prior to filing papers dissolving the APA, the union could potentially print a handbook for what to do in the upcoming weeks and months. Mail the manual to every pilot, file the papers, and the APA is no more, but each pilot would still have solid guidance on what to do to apply pressure. There could be a period of "no make up", then, individual days of 100% strike, culminating in a 100% strike on a certain day.

It creates some very sticky legal issues, I'm thinking. Who does the company negotiate with? Can someone be sanctioned for creating the "strike manual" prior to APA dissolution? Other oddities too.

Scabs - Technically not scabs, but we know what pilot memory is like w/regards to those who cross a line, and it is a line. If/when the company caves, dust off the APA bylaws, re-form under a new name.

I understand it's a long shot and won't happen, but I see no other way to withhold services, and without that, we are twisting in the wind.

I hate to say it but I think that if there was no union and enough pilots walked out, the company would just sell off the pieces and top management would shrug and move on to the next throne to sit upon. It just happened at Hostess. It just doesn't seem like TPTB have any incentive to actually see companies succeed any more. Or at least there is no disincentive for them not to fail.

Hostess was a battle of union against union... very interesting when you pull the layers of the onion back. Your mileage.. is different.

Well if you were to read the "rest of the story" you will see that the management at Hostess has done nothing to alter the company's downward spirial except ask the workers for concessions, which they gave in 2004, to "save" the company. Sound familiar? The current management also were found guilty of jacking up their compensation just prior to entering BK. Now management has gone to their BK judge asking for an additional 1.8 million in additional compensation to "retain management personel" as they dismantle the company. BK is a stacked deck against the workers while the management crooks are ignored as the public is presented with the drumbeat of the uninformed media about those greedy union workers. So who do you respect more, the workers who finally said "take this job and shove it" or management that demands that they be at the front of the line for the spoils of their own mis-managed company?

You are right, but it was the Teamsters that have been able to negotiate lucrative contracts that have driven up the costs at Hostess. The baking process is mostly automated, and very efficient. Featherbedding by the Teamsters have driven up costs, and yes, you are right it was management that allowed this and have been able to continually demand concessions from the bakers. They finally said they had enough. I honestly don't blame them. I am not making any judgements as to their position, and I think it abhorrent that they have been vilified (much like the AMR pilots) in the media to the degree they have. I just find the whole thing interesting, and it is not just what you hear in the media that is "the whole truth".

AA folks forgive my ignorance since I have not followed your goings on too closely, but I did have a couple questions:

1. My understanding is that your next vote goes down on D-day, Dec 7. Right?

2. Is the note/claim considered pie in the sky by many/most pilots?

3. Is there a considerable downside beside the claim/note loss for the pilots if you vote this down?

4. I've heard one of your line 777 captains came up with an "acceptable" TA plan that looks somewhat DAL/UCal averaged - does this have traction?

5. Do you have "faith" in your management team going forward or do you expect if your TA passes, a hunk of AA domestically will be outsourced?

6. Why wouldn't your Mgmt agree to whatever you wanted simply for the goal of exiting Bankruptcy, getting their bonuses and flipping the bird to AA? Are they really soooo shallow that it is just a johnson measuring contest?

because they can aa has always promoted flight attendants to mid and mid upper management the culture is that an fa is the same as a pilot hence this me too clause
this lbfo2 has pay of 4% then 2% then 2% but when you take away night pay and int'l ovrd $6 hr ca and $4 hr fo it's no raise.
I voted no i believe they need very badly a contract to exit bk for the ipo because the union is still playing this i've got a secret we can't tell you because of the individual confidentiality agreements and the nda i am very worried they will spin off eagle and grow that exponentially

Pay -

4% DOS
2% 12 months after DOS
2% 24 months
17-24% 36 months (17% if US still exists. 24% if US is merged)
2% 48 months
2% 60 months